[Tramticket]

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Looking at both hands, where do you want to play? Do you want to be in 6♥?

We reached a silly contract. How would you bid these hands playing standard methods? [Dealer: South / Multi-teams]

[Kaitlyn S]

 Tramticket, on 2016-October-04, 08:51, said:

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Looking at both hands, where do you want to play? Do you want to be in 6♥?

We reached a silly contract. How would you bid these hands playing standard methods? [Dealer: South / Multi-teams]

Yes, I want to play 6H.

Strong single-suited minor hands are difficult to bid in Standard. Are you asking us to be like the people who write the Bridge Bulletin auctions for "It's Your Call" and say "6H gets an 11, now let's give an auction to get there?" Sometimes it's ludicrous - they make a non-forcing bid and then take charge after partner's signoff.

I'm going to attempt to bid this hand where I don't know what partner holds for each bid.

1D-1H-3C-4C-4H-4S-5NT-6C-6D-6H. It's not elegant. You'll get better auctions from Ace & Phil, I'm sure, but my auction should be attainable by someone at my level, which might be what you are looking for (I don't know you, so if it appears I'm insulting you, I'm really not, and pretend I'm answering the question for a decent player not in the top echelon.)

1D, 1H easy.
3C - what else? Must force.
4C - Encouraging with clubs.
4H - Still looking for a spot. Partner should realize that my clubs might not be real and I am looking for a spot/bidding out my shape. I could be 1-3-7-2 or 1-3-5-4 but I think I have pinpointed the singleton spade.
4S - Control bid. I don't know the best spot yet so I need to hear more. I'm thinking 6C or 6H.
5NT - I am not bidding Blackwood because I don't know what trump is. I think we have enough for slam (because partner bid 4S) but I have no clue what should be trump, or even if there should be any. I am asking partner to pick the best strain.
6C- I have club intermediates so if you have real clubs, I think this is the slam. I realize you might think I have a fifth club, but I can't commit to 6H in case you have K, Jxx, AKQxxx, AKx. Unfortunately, 6NT which you won't bid is better than 6C on a spade lead which takes out an entry to the diamonds, but I'd rather take a poke at 6C than 6H.
6D- No, clubs isn't the right slam. Please choose between 6D, 6H, and 6NT.
6H - The fact that you are giving me a choice at all must mean that 6H is playable.

[Cyberyeti]

Dealer ? In my case it doesn't really matter, if N opens, N will show 5 hearts and a minimum opener with no high card diamond control, S will keycard, N will show 2 without Q and a void diamond and S will bid 6♥. If S opens:

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced)
3♦(single suit diamonds)-3♥(I have 5)
3♠(NT probe or start of cue bidding)-3N
4♣(3♠ and 4♣ were both cues agreeing hearts)-5♦(voidwood)
5N(2 without)-6♥


and yes I want to be in 6♥, 3-2 heart break is pretty much all I need and chances on some 4-1s

[Kaitlyn S]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-04, 11:02, said:

Dealer ?

I assumed South dealt because getting to 6H is trivial if North opens 1H or Flannery.

[Phil]

1H 1N
2C 2D
2H 2S
3D 3H
3S 4H


1. 1H is 14+ (10+ if the hand contains spades)


1N to 3D are relays. North reveals 4504 exactly and a minimum (6-7 AKQ points)

4H is rkcb and North shows 2 w/o.

[Kaitlyn S]

 Tramticket, on 2016-October-04, 08:51, said:

How would you bid these hands playing standard methods?

 Phil, on 2016-October-04, 11:32, said:

1N to 3D are relays. North reveals 4504 exactly and a minimum (6-7 AKQ points)

If these are standard methods, the game has changed a heck of a lot since I played it - perhaps enough to make me unqualified to teach new students!

[Phil]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 11:53, said:

If these are standard methods, the game has changed a heck of a lot since I played it - perhaps enough to make me unqualified to teach new students!

Definitely non, NON standard although I doubt there's a standard way to reliably bid this set of hands to 6H without some good guessing.

[kenberg]

It looks as if 6H comes in whenever hearts are 3-2 so sure, I want to be there.

I am not so sure how to get there.
We start 1D-1H

Now 3C has been suggested and in fact that is probably what I would do.
However, as I am contemplating this 3C call, I have to keep in mind that partner will not always have five hearts. Suppose a small heart in the S hand is a small diamond.

1D 1H
3C 4C
4H

Now what? I put myself in North's shoes. Partner has made a jump shift to 3C and made and then bid 4H. I could have had five hearts, but I don't. But I do have four clubs. Perhaps, or even probably, I allow that the 3C bid is sometimes an invention. But it is not always an invention. And I don't think that the 4H call now zeroes out the 3C call completely. N has a problem, I think, if his heart 5 is changed to a diamond 5.

Ok, the heart 5 is the heart 5, not the diamond 5. But, now back to being South, I could well worry about this situation before I bid 3C.

I am not really disagreeing with Kaitland here, but I think that this situation, a not infrequent one, is understudied and I am saying I am not all that sure what I would do. I think a solution should be applicable both when N holds five hearts and when he has four.

[Kaitlyn S]

this is the new hand said:

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1D-1H-3C-4C-4H all still the same.
North still knows South has 3 hearts and a singleton spade. A singleton spade is good for North as it means that at worst there are three 7-card fits and probably no wasted SK, Q, or J (yeah wrong about that, but still, that's what North is thinking.) Thinking he has 11 points (which good controls) out of a 34-point deck, North is still bidding 4S.
The unchanged South hand chooses 5NT.
The new North hand still bids 6C.
Now it gets dicey. The unchanged South hand corrects to 6D. North doesn't want 6H or 6NT so North passes 6D, expecting better diamonds. South has good diamonds when he pulls 6C as he showed a singleton spade, three hearts, and doesn't want to play 6C. (I would hope 2-3-6-2 with broken diamonds would open or rebid notrump; with great diamonds, 6D is likely okay.) With the heart loser going on North's clubs, 6D makes on 3-2 diamonds with the king onside. It is not a good contract (about 34%.) What would you expect from a non-expert bidding hands using standard bidding on a hand that is particularly bad for standard bidding? You might stay out of slam playing a system that allows South to show a strong hand with broken diamonds, or a relay system where either partner shows their hand. TBH, if I never bid a slam that was worse than this, I would do a whole lot better.

I think 6NT needs the same thing 6D needs. TBH I would prefer to avoid slam with these two hands but equipped with standard bidding, I'm not able to do that.

EDIT: 6NT is an entry nightmare. Consider that the HA is the only entry to both lead a diamond, and to cash a blocked winner to discard South's heart. On a spade lead, win SK, CAK, H to HA, CQ discarding heart, diamond up. But how do you negotiate a heart lead, considering the possibility of an entry killing spade lead by the defense when they win their diamond?

[apollo1201]

6♥ looks like a very decent slam, and is probably better than the average slam lots of us usually reach!

With my usual partner, we would bid like this, not too scientific but not too revealing, FWIW...

2♣ (strong, artificial, but not GF) - 2♦ (waiting, could be bust, but bidding a suit requires 8+ and 2 top honors out of 3, which you don't have, and you fear partner has a strong D-based hand)

3♦ (I usually hate this sequence because things start very high) - 3♥ (natural, 5+)

4♥ (broken ♦suit, unsure ♠ values, and patner either has a not too great suit, or has less than 8) - 6♥ (I have lots of extras vs. what I've shown and partner has around 18 HCPs, he wouldn't fit with xxx or Hx only, it is unlikely I'm making 7 because of the ♦ void and shaky trump suit, and maybe they don't lead C if I have 2 quick losers there)

[ggwhiz]

After 1♦ - 1♥ if south chooses 2nt it's pretty easy. It's not at all clear that they will but I don't like anything else even a little bit.

[Kaitlyn S]

 apollo1201, on 2016-October-04, 13:33, said:

2♣ (strong, artificial, but not GF) - 2♦ (waiting, could be bust, but bidding a suit requires 8+ and 2 top honors out of 3, which you don't have, and you fear partner has a strong D-based hand)

3♦ (I usually hate this sequence because things start very high) - 3♥ (natural, 5+)

It is clear that you don't have a second negative after 3D. (I don't either.) How to you stay out of game? Is the only way to stay out of game 2C-2D-3D-(a suit bid)-4D-P? And if so, if North doesn't have a five-card suit, might he not have to bid 4D, forcing your side to game? As the Kaplan-Rubens hand evaluator puts this hand at 20.3, I really don't want to force to game in a minor or even to 4D.

Granted, opening 2C and supporting hearts makes it extremely easy to get to 6H, and your auction is much easier for a lower-flight player to understand than mine. (That whole 5NT pick a slam I used is mind boggling to some.) But how does 2C work (a) in the more likely event that your partner has spades instead of hearts, or (b) has a random 4-count?

I'm just going to give you some hands to bid, paired with a 2C opening on:
K, K86, AQ76432, AK.

Various responder hands:
(a) 7654,765,95,7654
(b) Q9762, 953, 5, J764
© Q864, 532, 108, Q765
or Ken Rexford's example
(d) AT96, AT73, 5, QJ85

Hand (a) I play in 1D. You play in 5D unless 2C-2D-3D-4D is passable.
Hand (b) I play in 1D. Are you bidding 3NT or 4D over 2C-2D-3D-3S?
Hand © I play in 1D. You might get to stop in 3NT (2C-2D-3D-3NT?) It's possible the opponents will defend in such a way that you can make it on D-Kx onside, but maybe not.
Hand (d) I got to 6D. Not good. However, with 11 opposite a 2C opener, I don't think it's possible to stay out, and I wouldn't be surprised if you end up in 6NT which needs 3-2 diamonds and has serious entry issues on a heart lead.

Really, my only issue with 2C is that I don't think your hand is good enough to open 2C, let alone rebid 3D which I think shows more than a minimum 2C opener because it forces the auction so high.

[Kaitlyn S]

 ggwhiz, on 2016-October-04, 14:13, said:

After 1♦ - 1♥ if south chooses 2nt it's pretty easy. It's not at all clear that they will but I don't like anything else even a little bit.

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[ggwhiz]

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 11:53, said:

If these are standard methods, the game has changed a heck of a lot since I played it - perhaps enough to make me unqualified to teach new students!

I agree with the sentiment and your example hand is 50-50 to blow up but what's better?

3♦ is too big an underbid for me, 3 or 4 hearts just as dangerous and the artificial stuff mentioned by others is not on the card.

[Cyberyeti]

I note the OP lives in the UK, so the old fashioned Acol 2♦ opener works quite nicely (8 playing tricks in diamonds)

Basically you need a gadget for the death hand or fake a 3♣ rebid playing anything standardish, GGG 2♠ or a GF 2N (playable in a weak NT context) is made for this.

[apollo1201]

As I said, 2C is not gf. It is a 22-23 NT or a strong one suited hand around 8 playing tricks, usually 6 card major 18-20 or 7 card minor 16-18 with no 4-cd side suit. 6 card minors when strong we try to stick in some NT range if semibalanced or we open 1 and jump or reverse in a 3-cd suit if 6331 eg.

So on hand a, I end up in 3D while you play 1D provided opps allow you to play there with 20 HCP and D shrotness.

If responder is greedy I might arrive in 3NT on b or c.

Hand d is a nightmare and cant pull the brakes if responder makes a creative 3H bid.

 Kaitlyn S, on 2016-October-04, 14:18, said:

It is clear that you don't have a second negative after 3D. (I don't either.) How to you stay out of game? Is the only way to stay out of game 2C-2D-3D-(a suit bid)-4D-P? And if so, if North doesn't have a five-card suit, might he not have to bid 4D, forcing your side to game? As the Kaplan-Rubens hand evaluator puts this hand at 20.3, I really don't want to force to game in a minor or even to 4D.

Granted, opening 2C and supporting hearts makes it extremely easy to get to 6H, and your auction is much easier for a lower-flight player to understand than mine. (That whole 5NT pick a slam I used is mind boggling to some.) But how does 2C work (a) in the more likely event that your partner has spades instead of hearts, or (b) has a random 4-count?

I'm just going to give you some hands to bid, paired with a 2C opening on:
K, K86, AQ76432, AK.

Various responder hands:
(a) 7654,765,95,7654
(b) Q9762, 953, 5, J764
© Q864, 532, 108, Q765
or Ken Rexford's example
(d) AT96, AT73, 5, QJ85

Hand (a) I play in 1D. You play in 5D unless 2C-2D-3D-4D is passable.
Hand (b) I play in 1D. Are you bidding 3NT or 4D over 2C-2D-3D-3S?
Hand © I play in 1D. You might get to stop in 3NT (2C-2D-3D-3NT?) It's possible the opponents will defend in such a way that you can make it on D-Kx onside, but maybe not.
Hand (d) I got to 6D. Not good. However, with 11 opposite a 2C opener, I don't think it's possible to stay out, and I wouldn't be surprised if you end up in 6NT which needs 3-2 diamonds and has serious entry issues on a heart lead.

Really, my only issue with 2C is that I don't think your hand is good enough to open 2C, let alone rebid 3D which I think shows more than a minimum 2C opener because it forces the auction so high.

[Kaitlyn S]

 apollo1201, on 2016-October-04, 16:06, said:

As I said, 2C is not gf. It is a 22-23 NT or a strong one suited hand around 8 playing tricks, usually 6 card major 18-20 or 7 card minor 16-18 with no 4-cd side suit. 6 card minors when strong we try to stick in some NT range if semibalanced or we open 1 and jump or reverse in a 3-cd suit if 6331 eg.

So on hand a, I end up in 3D while you play 1D provided opps allow you to play there with 20 HCP and D shrotness.

So 2C-2D-3D is non-forcing?

[Kaitlyn S]

 ggwhiz, on 2016-October-04, 15:31, said:

I agree with the sentiment and your example hand is 50-50 to blow up but what's better?

3♦ is too big an underbid for me, 3 or 4 hearts just as dangerous and the artificial stuff mentioned by others is not on the card.

The standard method (and the OP mentioned standard) for dealing with a maximum 1-bid with a long minor is to fake a jump shift or a reverse on the rebid. Standard bidders as responder know it can be fake and cater to it.

It's hard to do 20 bidding challenge hands in a row without getting one of these; the hands are usually selected because they give standard players problems and usually one of the "expert" pairs in the challenge is playing a strong club or relay system with just the right bid for the hand.

So the standard rebid for this hand is 3C. 2NT just seems way too out there with a total of 3 cards in the two unbid suits.

[Tramticket]

Thank you for all that replied. If you are of a nervous disposition you may not want to look at the actual auction:

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The 2♣ rebid is of course non-forcing - but we have played together long enough for partner to know my style and bid 2♣ expecting me to dredge up a bid (I rarely if ever pass this type of auction).

I now had a choice between showing my club support or my good stop in the fourth suit. I don't think that 2NT was a good choice with a void in partner's suit and communications likely to be difficult.

Partner has saved bidding space by her 2♣ bid - but it is difficult to see how she should move forward over my 2NT. 3♦ would be non-forcing, so perhaps 4♦ would be the wiser bid ... but then what? Do I give preference to clubs? Or show the fifth heart? In the end she decided not to use the extra bidding space and chose instead to punt 6NT, expecting me to hold a couple of diamonds for my no trump bid and hoping that the diamonds could be established.

[Cyberyeti]

Don't like your 2N bid much either, what is partner supposed to do with x, KJ, AQxxxx, AKxx ? bid 3N ? with 3N not cold if spades misbehave and you misguess the hearts and 6♣ good.

Can't partner bid 3♥ forcing 3 card support over 2N ?