[Caitlynne]

I have been searching online for defensive bidding schemes for handling 3 suited opening bids by the opponents - particularly the mini-Roman 2D opening showing minimum range opening values and 4441 (or 4450 patterns with 5 diamonds or clubs). Strangely, there appears to be virtually nothing.

All I have found is that direct seat should:

Pass = nothing to say
Dbl = good general values (e.g., 14/15+ HCP)
2N = some sources suggest strong and balanced while others suggest unusual.

In other words, there is not much.

Can anyone direct me to something?

Thanks!

[SteveMoe]

Caitlynne, try http://web.mit.edu/m...4-1_article.pdf there a few small adds to consider. References abound. See p. 7 of 14 for the defense discussion.

[Phil]

Dbl and lead trump. I don't see a need for a 2N overcall.

[aguahombre]

Definitely look for reasons to stay out of these auctions rather than reasons to get into them. Double=very good nt opener; overcall in a suit should be a very good suit and beyond just decent opening bid strength.

An 11(or 10)-card fit will break favorably. The rest, not.

[johnu]

Phil, on 2017-March-23, 21:48, said:

Dbl and lead trump. I don't see a need for a 2N overcall.

Of course, diamonds are not set as trump. There are no right answers but I encourage my opponents to use this strategy against me.

[mycroft]

Of course we're not doubling 2♦, that's silly. We wait until your side stops bidding, and then double (and lead trump). The double is not mandatory, just highly encouraged (but the trump lead is).

[johnu]

mycroft, on 2017-March-26, 01:24, said:

Of course we're not doubling 2♦, that's silly. We wait until your side stops bidding, and then double (and lead trump). The double is not mandatory, just highly encouraged (but the trump lead is).

LOL, I love the posturing on this forum. I still strongly encourage my opponents to adopt a strategy like this

Maybe this works against bidding wonks who can't play a lick, don't know how to evaluate hands, and are going to get rattled by the double, but this is the Expert forum.

[mycroft]

heh, I've played this, and I've played Precision 2♦. And when dummy has 6 or so, your 8-card fit is bad, and players a table away know this is going to be on a crossruff, so they're pulling trump starting with trick 1; I don't care how expert you are. Frequently you get good results, too; but frequently isn't even 80%.

Sometimes - sometimes - when you make one of these semi-preemptive openings, you're already too high. And when that happens, you eat it.

I have similar comments to the people who say that the 12-14 1NT opener "goes for numbers". It doesn't. But -300 into -110, or -100 into them playing the misfit and going down - yeah, that happens.

[aguahombre]

johnu, on 2017-March-26, 01:49, said:

LOL, I love the posturing on this forum. I still strongly encourage my opponents to adopt a strategy like this

Interesting self-assessment of your post.

[johnu]

aguahombre, on 2017-March-26, 05:45, said:

Interesting self-assessment of your post.

Blanket advice like double and lead a trump based on some point count range is just irresponsible for the BBO forum masses IMHO. I'll be the first to agree that the 2♦ bid can get opener's side into trouble, but usually it will be a quiet part score or game our way, or it is the opponents hand. If it is our hand, how does doubling help your side? If it is your hand, do you really expect doubling with insufficient trumps is the best way to play bridge? Maybe if we are vul against not vul, you rate to have more success but that was not mentioned.

[aguahombre]

johnu, on 2017-March-26, 13:50, said:

Blanket advice like double and lead a trump based on some point count range is just irresponsible for the BBO forum masses IMHO. I'll be the first to agree that the 2♦ bid can get opener's side into trouble, but usually it will be a quiet part score or game our way, or it is the opponents hand. If it is our hand, how does doubling help your side? If it is your hand, do you really expect doubling with insufficient trumps is the best way to play bridge? Maybe if we are vul against not vul, you rate to have more success but that was not mentioned.

Much better, and much more useful to readers in search of information on the subject. We are a Mini-Roman pair of sorts --- modified a bit with a split range wrinkle (11-14 or 23-25) and one under continuations. But, we are looking for good suggestions what to tell opponents when they ask about recommended defenses. At this point we just say D=strong nt, overcalls should be good suits with tricks, and otherwise stay out. It would not occur to us to strongly recommend something poor to the opponents in jest, even though I have used that type of comment here on the forums when someone is advocating the absurd.

[WellSpyder]

johnu, on 2017-March-26, 13:50, said:

Blanket advice like double and lead a trump based on some point count range is just irresponsible for the BBO forum masses IMHO.

I think there was an element of tongue in cheek in the original comment. Of course you can't just double whatever you have in your hand. But the two basic pieces of advice that have been offered in this thread seem to me (as someone who plays this sort of opening) to be spot on:

1) Stay out of the auction if you can find any excuse to do so
2) Lead a trump

[johnu]

WellSpyder, on 2017-March-27, 05:51, said:

I think there was an element of tongue in cheek in the original comment.

Apparently so, but 2 favorably rated posters made the same suggestion without , and still there have not been any suggestions other than to double with a strong notrumpish hand and nothing about continuations by the defenders.

[TylerE]

The defense to Mini-Roman is that the opponents are playing Mini-Roman.

[johnu]

TylerE, on 2017-March-27, 13:43, said:

The defense to Mini-Roman is that the opponents are playing Mini-Roman.

If you are talking about intermediate or lower players who decided that a 3 suited 2♦ sounded exotic so they decided to bolt it onto their system, anything and everything they play is an advantage for more advanced players.

In fact, for expert players who make a well thought out decision to include this convention based on system design, the main advantage is when you don't open 2♦ so that your other bids are better defined. I would note that although Fantunes were discredited, the Fantunes bidding system moved 3 suited hands to 1NT to better define other sequences. 2♦ started life as 2♣ in the Roman system (if not before) used by some Blue Team members. The original 2♦ was stronger, something like 17-20.

Despite superficial attempts to disparage this convention, defending against this is a lot harder than anything anybody here has proposed, and making a mistake will put your own head on the chopping block, and not the opener's side.

[helene_t]

pass: could be a fairly good 2- or 3-suited hand, especially with length in diamonds. Those hands are better off waiting, it might become easier next round. Also, pass with a 14-count and a poor 5-card major.

dbl: ostensibly a strong NT hand or stronger, could be a very strong hand without diamond shortage. Partner is allowed to sit with a 3-card (occasinally doubleton) diamonds if he doesn't have a decent alternative.

2♥/♠/3♣/♦: decent suit. If you play IMPs you probably agree with p that it also shows some points.

2NT: Strong 2- or 3-suited, short in diamonds.

3♥/♠: I think I prefer this as weak.

[mycroft]

I believe the mini-Roman opener to be clearly -EV (and I played it for years). I've made that clear. I've played many -EV calls in the past - mini-multi 2♦ for one, Precision 2♦ for another - and will continue to do so. Bids can not be dealt with in isolation, but in the context of a system. If you believe the benefit of taking these hands out of the rest of your system improves those calls sufficiently to overcome the EV loss from the 2♦ call, then go for it! I don't find it such, so I don't.

I do know the oddball Montreal Relay variant current around here absolutely needs the mini-Roman 2♦, because their 1♣ call is so overloaded even *with* those hands taken out.

I will note that I almost never note sarcasm. It's usually obvious from the massive amount of overstatement, I think. However, the "double and lead trump" joke has been around since *I* was playing mini-roman - this can't be the first time you've heard it.

I don't think anybody trying to learn wouldn't understand the "ha ha only serious" nature of that comment. Those that do should spend a day at the Jargon File, where their world will be enlarged.

[Phil]

johnu, on 2017-March-26, 13:50, said:

Blanket advice like double and lead a trump based on some point count range is just irresponsible for the BBO forum masses IMHO. I'll be the first to agree that the 2♦ bid can get opener's side into trouble, but usually it will be a quiet part score or game our way, or it is the opponents hand. If it is our hand, how does doubling help your side? If it is your hand, do you really expect doubling with insufficient trumps is the best way to play bridge? Maybe if we are vul against not vul, you rate to have more success but that was not mentioned.

In the 1980's, mini-roman was in its hey-day. Some played it as 11-14, and some played it as 10-13. It is, was, and always will be a stupid treatment and is the classic, "a solution in search of a problem".

The advice 30 years ago was "lead trump" and when it has come up, its been correct. Declarer rates to do a LOT of ruffing on these hands, and our side tricks will come later. As a matter of fact, I specifically remember a time when I didnt lead a trump from Kx, and it was STILL right to lead one on that layout.

[johnu]

Phil, on 2017-March-28, 12:30, said:

It is, was, and always will be a stupid treatment and is the classic, "a solution in search of a problem".

Hmmm, a lot of 2♦ conventions seem to merit that description, e.g. Flannery

Phil, on 2017-March-28, 12:30, said:

The advice 30 years ago was "lead trump" and when it has come up, its been correct. Declarer rates to do a LOT of ruffing on these hands, and our side tricks will come later. As a matter of fact, I specifically remember a time when I didnt lead a trump from Kx, and it was STILL right to lead one on that layout.

If you say it never leads to a bad result, who am I to contradict you.

[Phil]

johnu, on 2017-March-27, 23:22, said:

In fact, for expert players who make a well thought out decision to include this convention based on system design, the main advantage is when you don't open 2♦ so that your other bids are better defined.

I would note that although Fantunes were discredited, the Fantunes bidding system moved 3 suited hands to 1NT to better define other sequences.

First, there isn't a single top pair that plays mini-roman. There are a whole bunch that are using a 4415 Precision 2D opener.

But I guess I'm curious. What intelligent design can you implement because you have this club in your bag? I think in SEF an auction like 1D 1H 1S 1N 2C gets played as a heavy 4351 and 2H shows a min 4315 but this is more of a function of never raising with 3.

The fact that Fantunes stashed the 4x1's into 1N is sort of testament that they needed 2D so desperately rather than putting the pattern into another call.

You compare it to Flannery. I used to love Flanbery, but its kind of a double edged sword. You have some awesome 2D 4H sequences but it's also a strong deterrent for the opponents not to get involved since you've told them their spades aren't breaking. In Kansas City we had 2D p 2H x all pass for a quick 800. Other tables were just passing 1H so this just fell in our laps.

With mini Roman, you aren't even getting the smash 2D 4M sequences since openers stiff isn't even known, which can let 4th hand on a lot cheaper. Yes it's risky but the other side has just announced to the world that our suits are breaking terribly. And when we do play the hand, we play with mirrors due to this treatment. There's even some cool hands in AICP where declared plays for an unbalanced ruffing squeeze because he knows the layout at T1.