[dickiegera]

---

Should East act over 4♠? if so what?

Double penalty? 4NT takeout?

If East passes, what should West do?

Thank you

[MrAce]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

Should East act over 4♠? if so what?

I definitely would. DBL

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

Double penalty? 4NT takeout?

Depends on agreement. The way i like DBL shows 2+♠ and a hand too strong to pass. Mainly balanced value double. Can be xx ♠ 4 NT= pure take out.

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

If East passes, what should West do?

PASS!

[mr1303]

Actually going plus here is a good score, as I can easily imagine 6H-1.

[WellSpyder]

mr1303, on 2017-June-06, 07:50, said:

Actually going plus here is a good score, as I can easily imagine 6H-1.

You could be right.

ATB(1):
(4♠) P (P) P

ATB(2):
(4♠) X (P) 6♥
AP

When things are going well, one member of a partnership takes an optimistic view and the other takes a pessimistic view. When things are going badly, either both take a pessimistic view or both take an optimistic view on the same hand.

[GrahamJson]

If there were an easy way of dealing with these sorts of hands players would stop opening 4S.

I think I would probably pass as east and double as west, with east passing again. But it is easier when you can see both hands. Certainly if east doubles it is difficult to see how west can avoid bidding six.

The problem with doubling on the east hand is that you are short of offensive values to allow partner to play at the five level and don't have the defensive tricks to believe that 4S is likely to go off. West, on the other hand, has better offence and defence. Also, being in the pass out position east may not expect the same values as in direct position, although I think that this is a relatively minor factor.

[The_Badger]

I am more confident doubling with the West hand than the East. The West hand is 14HCPs but looks good (K&R 16); the East hand is 15HCPs and looks poor (K&R 14.55)

Before I even used the K&R calculator, I would have downgraded the East hand from a 1NT (15-17) opener to a 1♣ opener as it is intermediate-free. Doubling directly over a 4♠ bid with a minimum hand is just not for me personally.

[MrAce]

The_Badger, on 2017-June-06, 10:18, said:

I am more confident doubling with the West hand than the East. The West hand is 14HCPs but looks good (K&R 16); the East hand is 15HCPs and looks poor (K&R 14.55)

Before I even used the K&R calculator, I would have downgraded the East hand from a 1NT (15-17) opener to a 1♣ opener as it is intermediate-free. Doubling directly over a 4♠ bid with a minimum hand is just not for me personally.

LOL

[ahydra]

MrAce, on 2017-June-06, 17:57, said:

LOL

This isn't a particularly constructive post, is it? No doubt you are a more skilled player than The_Badger (with apologies to him), myself and many others here, but please try to keep things constructive rather than at best unhelpful, at worst insulting.

He does have a point about Xing with W rather than E. With 3 top tricks including plenty of trump control to give time to set stuff up, the West hand has substantially more confidence in being able to beat it - recall partner will often hold modest balanced(ish) values and will often pass. To me the East hand could just scrape up a double but it is minimum in both HCP and shape, and I think I would pass it at the table.

ahydra

[akwoo]

MPs, I'd double with W in balancing seat. IMPs is tougher, because the downside of acting is bigger than the upside - neither player has the distribution to make the big upside outcome of a double game swing likely.

I can't imagine acting with E in direct seat ever.

[nige1]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

Should East act over 4♠?
if so what?
Double penalty? 4NT takeout?
If East passes, what should West do?

---

IMO, Double should be "Action" or "Cards" in both positions, i.e. competitive but more take-out than penalty. e.g. Usually short in opponent's suit. Tim Rees joked "Double shows the cards you hold".

Normally, partner needs a 6-card suit to take-out into a suit. With 2+ good suits, he can bid 4N. With most hands he just passes because 11+tricks is a high target.

I would rather double on the East hand than the West hand. (The West hand has ♠ values and can support only 2 suits). But I think I'd double with either

[MrAce]

ahydra, on 2017-June-06, 19:59, said:

This isn't a particularly constructive post, is it? <snip> but please try to keep things constructive rather than at best unhelpful, at worst insulting.

ahydra

Fair enough.
My apologies first to The_Badger and to others.

[The_Badger]

MrAce, on 2017-June-06, 21:00, said:

Fair enough.
My apologies first to The_Badger and to others.

No offence taken, Timo I readily admit that my bidding is a bit more conservative than other players on here.

[MrAce]

The_Badger, on 2017-June-06, 22:35, said:

No offence taken, Timo I readily admit that my bidding is a bit more conservative than other players on here.

Thanks.
My reaction was mostly due to your usage of K&R in this position, not anything against your approach and choice of actions. But this is not a good excuse and it was not called for so Ahydra was right for criticizing the way I replied.

[MrAce]

Fwiw, I set up 2 polls for this same hand.

1- What would W do if E passed 4♠

http://bridgewinners...m-2-909ep4n2py/

2-What would W do if E doubled 4♠

http://bridgewinners...m-2-8r0h320kmf/

Perhaps it would be better to also set up a poll asking what would E do over 4♠ but I did not want to reveal too much in order to prevent bias for the other polls.

[dow1978]

Dbl him parten.

[nekthen]

This is a great hand to discuss with partner.
If you agree East is correct to double, it follows that West does not have enough to bid 6. If East does not have enough to double then 6H from West may well be correct after East doubles with a better hand.
Maybe the problem is that we are assuming West has no alternative to bidding the final contract immediately. How about a lebensohl style 4N?
East bids 5♣ and West can pass or correct to play and with the given hand bid 5♥ immediately to show a good hand where 6 may be possible. Clearly this loses 4N to play but I can live with that.
Another question for partner is how many defensive tricks do you guarantee when you double at the 4 level. For me the answer is 3.

[msjennifer]

I shall pass with East hand and make a penalty double with West hand .There are 3 defensive tricks and nothing wrong in assuming East may provide a trick or two.In the given hands if the heart Ace brings down a singleton King,or you are able to pin the Jack,,depending upon your choice ,then we consider it as hard luck.

We play cooperative dbles over 3S and above preemption by opponents. (.Partner normally will not bid anything but pass for penalties).

[miamijd]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

---

Should East act over 4♠? if so what?

Double penalty? 4NT takeout?

If East passes, what should West do?

Thank you

X looks right. If you don't X with these hands, you'll get taken to the cleaners by preemptive bids.

I play a tiny bit differently from Timo. The way I play (which I think is the "standard" treatment nowadays) is that X is takeout and 4NT is two-suited (any two suits). If you have a strong hand with lots of spades, you end up having to pass (but honestly, how often will this happen). Of course, partner may pass the X of 4S for penalties even though it's a TO X, and he will most of the time.

If East passes, West has at truly obnoxious hand to handle. I think I would pass, because if I X and East removes it, I'm not apt to be happy.

Cheers,
mike

[Winstonm]

miamijd, on 2017-June-07, 15:58, said:

X looks right. If you don't X with these hands, you'll get taken to the cleaners by preemptive bids.

I play a tiny bit differently from Timo. The way I play (which I think is the "standard" treatment nowadays) is that X is takeout and 4NT is two-suited (any two suits). If you have a strong hand with lots of spades, you end up having to pass (but honestly, how often will this happen). Of course, partner may pass the X of 4S for penalties even though it's a TO X, and he will most of the time.

If East passes, West has at truly obnoxious hand to handle. I think I would pass, because if I X and East removes it, I'm not apt to be happy.

Cheers,
mike

I think as the game is currently played at high levels this is a good analysis.

[RD350LC]

dickiegera, on 2017-June-06, 06:45, said:

---

Should East act over 4♠? if so what?
Double-card showing.

Double penalty? 4NT takeout?
Not necessarily, but I would not mind if p passes for penality.

If East passes, what should West do?
Pass

Thank you

It is for this reason (difficulty in bidding over 4S) that I make the maximum pre-empt as much as possible.