[Chris3875]

Trying to get my head around the 2017 laws. If North calls 1H at partner's turn to call and the bid is not accepted by LHO I understand that the call is cancelled and partner can now make any call he wishes. Say he bids 1S and North has 5 hearts and 3 spades - he would normally now support the spade bid. Under the new laws of "comparable" bids does North have to repeat his hearts or can he bid the spades. Does a jump to 4S for example show a "comparable" hand i.e. an opening hand which the 1H bid showed.

[aguahombre]

 Chris3875, on 2017-June-09, 19:21, said:

Trying to get my head around the 2017 laws. If North calls 1H at partner's turn to call and the bid is not accepted by LHO I understand that the call is cancelled and partner can now make any call he wishes. Say he bids 1S and North has 5 hearts and 3 spades - he would normally now support the spade bid. Under the new laws of "comparable" bids does North have to repeat his hearts or can he bid the spades. Does a jump to 4S for example show a "comparable" hand i.e. an opening hand which the 1H bid showed.

If what you say is the way the 2017 Laws are written, this is a non-issue in the given case. North has 5 hearts and an opening bid. 'Normal' would not be to make some random game-forcing bid showing spade support; normal would be to bid 2♥ and show spade support later. 2H at that point shows the same thing his opening bid out of turn showed, and there is no harm.

In fact it is a side benefit -- preventing him from responding something else, which would have been stupid.

Edit: I say "if" about the new laws, rather than actually looking it up. This is on purpose, so I don't confuse myself in rulings until the new laws are in effect, possibly applying the new when I should be using the old. So, I really don't know if this change mentioned by the OP is real --- sure would be great if it were.

[Chris3875]

Yes, you are right - I didn't think it through. A 2H bid would show 10+ points and 5+ hearts - a "comparable" bid.

[weejonnie]

One thing - partner CANNOT make any call that he wishes. He must take into account the unauthorised information that you were able to open the bidding.

2nd thing: The person CAN support his partner. Suppose he bids 3 Hearts (a fit jump) - then that would be OK (showing opening values with Hearts AND spades is a subset of showing opening values with Hearts). If he just raises spades then partner must pass when next his turn to call (and there may be lead penalties as well as the old Law 23)

3rd thing: The call out of turn can be accepted (provided it is legal:)).

4th: a 'comparable call' is a much wider definition than the previous requirement - we have the word "similar" added to the definitions, and we don't really know how 'similar' a hand can be. (We also have the extra allowance of "the same purpose (e.g. an asking bid or a relay)" - presumably the call need not be asking for the same information and equally the requirements for making the asking bid don't seem to have to be the "same or similar".)

[blackshoe]

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Law 31B: When the offender has bid at his partner’s turn to call, or at his LHO’s turn to call if the offender has not previously called, then:
1. Offender’s partner may make any legal call at his proper turn, but Law 16C2 applies.
2. Offender may make any legal call at his correct turn and the Director rules as in A2(a) or A2(b) above.

Quote

Law 16C2: For an offending side, information arising from its own withdrawn action and from withdrawn actions of the non-offending side is unauthorized. A player of an offending side may not choose a call or play that is demonstrably suggested over another by unauthorized information if the other call or play is a logical alternative.

So, after North's call out of turn is cancelled, having not been accepted, Law 16C2 applies to South's first call. I don't see how the fact that South opened the bidding suggests anything at all to North, unless he wants to bid with less than opening values. So if South now opens 1♠, assuming that's a legitimate opening bid in their system, even if light, I see no problem.

Quote

Law 31A2: If that opponent makes a legal bid, double or redouble, offender may make any legal call:
(a) When the call is a comparable call (see Law 23A), there is no further rectification. Law 26B does not apply, but see Law 23C.
(b) When the call is not a comparable call (see Law 23A), offender’s partner must pass when next it is his turn to call. Laws 16C, 26B and 72C may apply.

So assuming South makes a legal bid, North can make a comparable call. What's that?

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Law 23A: A call that replaces a withdrawn call is a comparable call, if it:
1. has the same or similar meaning as that attributable to the withdrawn call, or
2. defines a subset of the possible meanings attributable to the withdrawn call, or
3. has the same purpose (e.g. an asking bid or a relay) as that attributable to the withdrawn call.

So if South now bids 2♥ is that a comparable call to his 1♥ opening? If they're playing 2/1 it certainly is. What if they're playing a system in which 2♥ is not game forcing? Well, 23A3 doesn't apply. 23A2 doesn't apply either (a hand which includes both invitational and game forcing values is not a subset of a hand which includes only game forcing values). So does 23A1 fit? Well, a 2♥ response in say SA doesn't have the same meaning as a 1♥ opening, so that's out. "Similar" meaning? What does that mean? "Resembling without being identical" says my dictionary. So it seems the interpretation of this new law would suggest that 2♥ is a comparable call. On that basis, Law 31A2a says there is no further rectification, but...

Quote

Law 23C: If following the substitution of a comparable call [see Laws 27B1(b), 30B1(b)(i), 31A2(a) and 32A2(a)] the Director judges at the end of the play that without the assistance gained through the infraction the outcome of the board could well have been different, and in consequence the non-offending side is damaged, he shall award an adjusted score [see Law 12C1(b)].

It's hard to be sure without an actual outcome and all four hands to look at, but off the top of my head I don't see how this law would apply if North bids 2♥, whether it's invitational or game forcing.

"He would now normally support the spade bid". Well, if his system, absent the irregularity, would have him support spades directly immediately, ignoring his five card heart suit, then whatever call he makes would not be comparable to his withdrawn 1♥ bid, so South must pass at his next turn, and...

Quote

Law 16C: When a call or play has been withdrawn as these laws provide:
1. For a non-offending side, all information arising from a withdrawn action is authorized, whether the action be its own or its opponents’.
2. For an offending side, information arising from its own withdrawn action and from withdrawn actions of the non-offending side is unauthorized. A player of an offending side may not choose a call or play that is demonstrably suggested over another by unauthorized information if the other call or play is a logical alternative.
3. The Director shall assign an adjusted score (see Law 12C1) if he considers that a violation of C2 has damaged the non-offending side.

The pertinent provisions here are §2 and §3. They might lead to an adjusted score.

Quote

Law 26B: When an offending player’s call is withdrawn and it is not replaced by a comparable call, then if he becomes a defender declarer may, at the offender’s partner’s first turn to lead (which may be the opening lead) either:
1. require the offender’s partner to lead any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender; or
2. prohibit offender’s partner from leading any (one) suit which has not been specified in the legal auction by the offender. Such prohibition continues for as long as the offender’s partner retains the lead.

It seems unlikely that the OS will end up defending here, so this law would not apply.

Quote

Law 72C: If the Director determines that an offender could have been aware at the time of his irregularity that it could well damage the non-offending side, he shall require the auction and play to continue (if not completed). At the conclusion of play the Director awards an adjusted score if he considers the offending side has gained an advantage through the irregularity.

This one doesn't seem likely either, but it's a judgement call for the TD.

Whew! That's a lot of stuff!

TL;DR: If in the OS' system a 2♥ response to 1♠ shows some 5 hearts and at least invitational values, then if the auction after the OOT 1♥ is withdrawn proceeds 1♠-(P|-2♥, the auction proceeds normally, and there will probably be no further rectification. If South bids, and North does something other than show his hearts at the two level, South is probably going to have to pass at his next turn and there may be other complications.

I can see impatient (is there any other kind?) players at the table not wanting to have all this explained to them, but IMO the TD has an obligation to explain his rulings, especially when they involve changes in the law.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2017-June-10, 13:15, said:

"He would now normally support the spade bid". Well, if his system, absent the irregularity, would have him support spades directly immediately, ignoring his five card heart suit, then whatever call he makes would not be comparable to his withdrawn 1♥ bid, so South must pass at his next turn, and...

The only systems I know of where someone would show 3-card support and game strength immediately are limited opening systems (e.g. Precision), where you just jump to game and opener is expected to pass (he can't tell whether you're bidding a strong hand or a preemptive hand, but his limited opening makes slam unlikely). So that's not likely to be an issue.

[blackshoe]

Fair enough, Barry.