Is this forcing? If so what bids?
#1
Posted 2018-February-25, 04:37
♥JT9532 ♠KT6 ♦763 ♣6
1NT P 2D 3C
P P ?
1NT = 15-17 may contain a singleton (A or K) or 6 card minor
2D = transfer
Is south forced to bid in this situation? Obviously with 6 cards it's tempting, but what if its only 5?
If you do bid is system generally on and therefore 3D is still a transfer or does South have to bid direct?
#2
Posted 2018-February-25, 04:57
#3
Posted 2018-February-25, 05:34
Responder is of course not forced to bid. I would bid 3♥ with this hand unless partner is likely to take it as invitational.
You should not play transfers in situations like this. It is an advantage to put overcaller on lead. Many players think that it is important that the strong hand declares and that this is the reason for playing transfers. This is at best a half-truth. Probably a myth created by lazy bridge teachers who couldn't think of a better way of justifying transfers.
#4
Posted 2018-February-25, 06:57
#1 2D may have been intendended as a weak sign off, why should a player
who wanted to play t the 2 level be forced to bid again
#2 If you have a 55 hand, that planned to show both suit starting with a
transfer, why should you now be unable to see it through?
3D is natural, showing values, ... due to lack of space it should be gf,
#3 3H could be either to play or inv., I guess to play, is more valuable, but
the NT opener usually wont have a 3 card fit, with suitable values
With kind regards
Marlowe
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#5
Posted 2018-February-25, 07:46
P_Marlowe, on 2018-February-25, 06:57, said:
the NT opener usually wont have a 3 card fit, with suitable values
We play that if the opps interfere low over a Jacoby transfer and the NT opener has super-accept values then he will make the usual 3 level completion with 4-card fit or double with 3-card fit and maximum strength. If he passes instead then responder can always bid a suit naturally at 3-level or Texas transfer his major at 4-level.
#6
Posted 2018-February-25, 09:15
It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.
What is baby oil made of?
#7
Posted 2018-February-25, 10:59
ggwhiz, on 2018-February-25, 09:15, said:
It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.
Ditto
#8
Posted 2018-February-25, 12:13
Cyberyeti, on 2018-February-25, 04:57, said:
siding hand is overrated as an advantage for transfers. The real advantage is you can show more hands.
If 3D is a real transfer you have no way to show HD 2-suiter
#10
Posted 2018-February-26, 01:56
SimonFa, on 2018-February-25, 04:37, said:
♥JT9532 ♠KT6 ♦763 ♣6
1NT P 2D 3C
P P ?
1NT = 15-17 may contain a singleton (A or K) or 6 card minor
2D = transfer
Is south forced to bid in this situation? Obviously with 6 cards it's tempting, but what if its only 5?
If you do bid is system generally on and therefore 3D is still a transfer or does South have to bid direct?
I wouldn't be remotely tempted to venture to the 3 level with only 4 pts and a stringy heart suit Definite pass.
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
#11
Posted 2018-February-26, 05:26
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#12
Posted 2018-February-26, 08:52
I would go with the following scheme
x = GF No club stop (may have other assets if 3n OR a penalty pass does not look appealing)
3d = natural and invitational (with GF just x)
3h = invitational
3s = patterning out with a hand that intended to bid 2s over 2h. For me that means at least 55 majors and invitational.
3n = club stop (little to no slam interest)
4c = splinter and 6+ hearts
4d = splinter and 6+ hearts
4h = A hand with short clubs that was going to just simply raise 2h to 3h after the transfer but has improved due to the club bidding by the opps.
#13
Posted 2018-February-26, 12:32
Going back to my first question can this be a forcing situation as partner has limited her hand? I seem to remember reading on here some time ago that a limited hand can't create a forcing situation. (Justin Lall springs to mind, but apologies if it wasn't him)
#14
Posted 2018-February-26, 14:38
SimonFa, on 2018-February-26, 12:32, said:
Here, opener is limited to 17 points and responder can have zero. So opener can't create a force - responder, if he has 0, will always be able to make the decision that we need to defend undoubled and opener should not prevent him from making this decision.
Compare to
pass-1♣
1♠-2♦
3♣*-?
*=Ingberman applies so this is positive, say 8-11 points.
Here, responder is limited by not having opened, but since opener has shown 16+, responder can still have enough to force (even to force to game).
Of course it can also be that the limited hand creates a force because it knows that we belong in some other partscore. A transfer by a passed hand is forcing even if you play weak NT.
#15
Posted 2018-February-26, 16:04
ggwhiz, on 2018-February-25, 09:15, said:
It's not hard to imagine lho having short hearts and partner has denied a hand that will play well in them.
I would pass as well. We might have an 8 card fit, but if partner can open 1 NT with a high singleton, we could be on a 7 card fit-and no reason to bid. Especially red vs white.
#17
Posted 2018-February-27, 08:14
SimonFa, on 2018-February-26, 12:32, said:
Going back to my first question can this be a forcing situation as partner has limited her hand? I seem to remember reading on here some time ago that a limited hand can't create a forcing situation. (Justin Lall springs to mind, but apologies if it wasn't him)
you open the bidding 1n (15-17) with Axx Kx AQxxx Axx (no opp biding) p bids 2d and you dutifully accept the transfer to 2h and next partner surprises you with 3d (gf natural). Your 17 count and 5332 hand have suddenly become so good that stopping short of 6d seems ridiculous and even 7d is on the radar. The point being is that under these conditions if might be quite acceptable for the LIMITED opener to bid 4n (unless the partnership has some special agreements as to how to handle these situations).
If responder shows 1 key card 6d is enough if they show 2 keys we should make one more grand slam try and if responder can show some life bidding 7d should be no worse than a 33 heart split and probably much better if not ice cold. This is admittedly a somewhat extreme example but even limited hands can reevaluate significantly as the bidding proceeds. Another might be AQJ AQJ JTxx xxx You open 1n 15-17 (again no opp bidding) partner bids 2d and you dutifully accept the transfer to 2h and p now bids 2s (playing this as at least 55 majors and invitational - not all will agree). You look at your 15 count and boring balanced distribution and bid 4s (this is an attempt to rightside the contract in case responder has some Kx that needs protection from the opening lead since we have nothing that needs such protection. It may not always make but the odds are pretty darn huge we have at least 9 if not 10 major suit tricks. You have to REEVALUATE constantly even if you have what appears to be a boring balanced hand. LISTEN to the bidding and decide if your hand has gotten better or worse or stayed the same:))))))
#18
Posted 2018-February-27, 16:26
gszes, on 2018-February-26, 08:52, said:
I would go with the following scheme
x = GF No club stop (may have other assets if 3n OR a penalty pass does not look appealing)
3d = natural and invitational (with GF just x)
3h = invitational
3s = patterning out with a hand that intended to bid 2s over 2h. For me that means at least 55 majors and invitational.
3n = club stop (little to no slam interest)
4c = splinter and 6+ hearts
4d = splinter and 6+ hearts
4h = A hand with short clubs that was going to just simply raise 2h to 3h after the transfer but has improved due to the club bidding by the opps.
X as GF so that you can make a range of weak and invitational bids is not great. Expert standard treats X as takeout - at the 3 level it has to show a hand that can tolerate a penalty pass or the bid of a 4 card !S suit at the 3 level.
#19
Posted 2018-February-27, 18:11
It makes some sense to play 3H as a 4 card raise / 3D as a maximal super accept / and X being a control heavy max with 3 card support with a small doubleton in C. This helps responder decide what to do as with those agreements with the hand you have or even one a little stronger pass is clear. It seems your partner may have a very good hand for H but still passes 3C leaving you feeling that you should bid with your limited values incase you find partner with something.
Additionally did you have a way to raise to 4H on the previous round? we like South-African Texas where 4C shows a transfer to 4H and 4D a transfer to 4S - we use these with weak hands where we want opener to play the hand. your hand is not quite good enough in those methods for a 4C bid in response to 1NT.
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regarding normal methods after 3C on your auction a new suit is forcing / X is takeout / and 3H is an invite with 6 (since with GF and 6 you already bid 4C and with a GF with 5 you can X). You need a better hand to invite if partner would have shown support as described above - this hand is a clear pass.