[pescetom]

In the first hand of a regional tournament yesterday our opponents opened 2♦, explained as "a weak-two major or a strong balanced hand or strong diamonds". They went on to bid and make 4♠. The hand turned out to be ♠KJxxx ♥Axx ♦Jxx ♣xx. Not my idea of a weak-two major, but I shrugged it off.

Today I checked out the FIGB regulations: while the general spirit is that "weak" means 9 points or less and that 4-cards is a sufficient holding in an identified suit, the exception 2.4a that allows one to make such 2♦ openings without Brown Sticker status refers explicitly to "a weak-two opening in a major". That opening isn't defined elsewhere, but I assume it would foresee a 6-card suit. At this level of tournament the rules also forebid psychic use of artificial bids, if that is relevant. I can't see bidding with 5-card when the CC promises 6-card as psychic, but nor does it seem legitimate if 6-card length is mandated by the RA, or if there is any doubt that partner might expect less (she seemed unsurprised on seeing the hand).

Would you expect any redress from the Director, given the above rules?
What would the situation be in your RA?

[barmar]

I don't see the problem. Many aggressive players open 2♠ with that hand. I don't see why the expectation about the length of a weak 2 would change when you're playing Multi.

[barmar]

As for what's allowed in our RA: ACBL GCC says "weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five cards". The new convention charts that are scheduled to go into effect this year use different language, but the result is the same.

So this opening would be perfectly fine.

[Tramticket]

From the EBU's Blue Book:

7 C Opening Bids from 2♣ to 3♠ inclusive
7 C 1 General, including ’Multi’ style opening bids
These may be played as one or both of (a) and (b) below
(a) Any meaning or meanings as long as they all show a strong hand (16+ HCP, or 12+ HCP with at least 5 controls), and/or
(b) At most one from the following four options:
(i) One or more meanings which all show at least four cards in the suit opened, or
(ii) One or more meanings which all show at least five cards in the same one specified suit, or
(iii) One or more meanings which all show at least 4-4 in the same two specified suits, or
(iv) Any combination of meanings that show either or both of
1) At least five cards in a suit, specified or not, which must not be the suit opened, and/or
2) At least 5-4 in two suits, either or both of which may be specified or not, but both of which must not be the suit opened.

So in EBU land a five-card suit is ok per 7C1 (b) (ii).

[jfnrl]

Italia and France have a regulation adapted from the WBF systems policy.

Compare the item concerning the multi 2D :

WBF
"EXCEPTION: a two level opening bid in a minor showing a weak two in either major, whether with or without the option of strong hand types containing 16 high card points or more, or with equivalent values. Defensive measures are permitted for opponents as in 6 below."

Italia
"ECCEZIONE: Un’apertura a livello di due in un minore che mostri una sotto apertura di due in un maggiore, sia che includa o meno l’opzione di uno dei tipi di mano forte quali descritti nel WBF Convention Booklet. In questo caso potranno comunque essere utilizzate le difese previste per le convenzioni e i trattamenti “Brown Sticker” previsti al successivo punto 6."

France
"Les ouvertures de 2♣ ou 2♦ « multi » montrant un deux faible en majeure (main montrant une couleur 6ème d’une force inférieure à la valeur de l’ouverture) avec ou sans options montrant une main forte."

So,the overcall of the OP is allowed under WBF regulation, forbidden in France, not prohibited in Italia

[pescetom]

So ACBL and EBU explicitly allow 5-card suits in this case, thanks.

jfnrl, on 2018-May-21, 12:15, said:

So,the overcall of the OP is allowed under WBF regulation, forbidden in France, not prohibited in Italia

If the Italians had bothered to define weak-two I bet they would have specified 6-card just like the French. But they didn't and so 5-card is not prohibited, I agree, although I suspect some Directors would not allow it all the same. Italy used to have very rigid and punitive rules about suit lengths of artificial calls, fortunately abrogated but the strict mentality remains.

[helene_t]

This question comes up extremely often so it is strange that several SOs haven't made this explicit.

FWIW the Dutch NBB does not discuss this, they just provide a translation of the WBF definition.

[ahydra]

Tramticket, on 2018-May-21, 09:21, said:

From the EBU's Blue Book:

7 C Opening Bids from 2♣ to 3♠ inclusive
7 C 1 General, including ’Multi’ style opening bids
These may be played as one or both of (a) and (b) below
(a) Any meaning or meanings as long as they all show a strong hand (16+ HCP, or 12+ HCP with at least 5 controls), and/or
(b) At most one from the following four options:
(i) One or more meanings which all show at least four cards in the suit opened, or
(ii) One or more meanings which all show at least five cards in the same one specified suit, or
(iii) One or more meanings which all show at least 4-4 in the same two specified suits, or
(iv) Any combination of meanings that show either or both of
1) At least five cards in a suit, specified or not, which must not be the suit opened, and/or
2) At least 5-4 in two suits, either or both of which may be specified or not, but both of which must not be the suit opened.

So in EBU land a five-card suit is ok per 7C1 (b) (ii).

Actually I think it's (b) (iv) (1), because (ii) refers only to specified suits and with the Multi the suit is unspecified (either hearts or spades, neither of which are diamonds). edit: so an example of (ii) would be "5+ spades, weak or two-suiter with spades, GF"

ahydra

[ahydra]

Surprisingly, despite NZ system regulations being fairly liberal, a multi has to have 6 cards to avoid being classified as Brown Sticker:

NZB Manual page D47 said:

Brown Sticker conventions:
- Any bid of 2C through 3S that could be weak and does not promise 4 cards in a known suit...
Exception: A 2-level opening in a minor that may show a weak hand in either major (6 cards) only or as an option among any number of strong hand types
...

ahydra

[barmar]

Don't forget that all these regulations are about agreements, and you're allowed to deviate as long as it's not frequent enough that it becomes an implicit agreement. And a 1-card deviation is not enough to be considered a psych.

So even in a jurisdiction that requires 6 cards in the suit, we'd need to know how often they do it with only 5.

[pran]

barmar, on 2018-May-23, 08:40, said:

Don't forget that all these regulations are about agreements, and you're allowed to deviate as long as it's not frequent enough that it becomes an implicit agreement. And a 1-card deviation is not enough to be considered a psych.

So even in a jurisdiction that requires 6 cards in the suit, we'd need to know how often they do it with only 5.

The way I understand the principle is (for instance) that if a regulation requires a weak opening bid 2M to contain at least 6 cards in the named suit then you may never make such an opening bid with 5 cards in the suit but you are free to psyche the 2M opening bid with 4 or less cards in that suit (provided of course that other relevant conditions for such a psyche is satisfied).

Why? A deviation in length of only one card is too small to be acceptable as a psyche.

[pescetom]

barmar, on 2018-May-23, 08:40, said:

Don't forget that all these regulations are about agreements, and you're allowed to deviate as long as it's not frequent enough that it becomes an implicit agreement. And a 1-card deviation is not enough to be considered a psych.

So even in a jurisdiction that requires 6 cards in the suit, we'd need to know how often they do it with only 5.

I understand your logic, but there is arguably a difference between a voluntary agreement between partners and a requirement of the RA. A director could never rule against a couple that agree 6 card and occasionally have 5 card, but if the rules say 6 card then he might well regard 5 card as a violation of the rules rather than a simple divergence from an agreement.

[nullve]

ahydra, on 2018-May-22, 18:17, said:

Surprisingly, despite NZ system regulations being fairly liberal, a multi has to have 6 cards to avoid being classified as Brown Sticker:

So Multi with

Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kx
Kx
xx

is a Brown Sticker, unlike Multi with

Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kxxxxx [6 hearts]
---
---

?

[pran]

ahydra, on 2018-May-22, 18:17, said:

Surprisingly, despite NZ system regulations being fairly liberal, a multi has to have 6 cards to avoid being classified as Brown Sticker:
ahydra

nullve, on 2018-May-23, 16:24, said:

So Multi with

Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kx
Kx
xx

is a Brown Sticker, unlike Multi with

Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kxxxxx [6 hearts]
---
---

?

This is the first time ever that I saw someone interpreting has to have 6 cards meaning exactly 6 cards? (no more, no less.)

(Why else should
Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kx
Kx
xx
be a Brown Sticker?)

[sfi]

ahydra, on 2018-May-22, 18:17, said:

Surprisingly, despite NZ system regulations being fairly liberal, a multi has to have 6 cards to avoid being classified as Brown Sticker:

The Australian regulations are almost identical, except they have the number 5 instead of 6.

Quote

A two level opening bid in a minor may show a weak hand with 5+ cards in either major only, or
as an option among any number of strong hand types.

[nullve]

pran, on 2018-May-24, 02:44, said:

This is the first time ever that I saw someone interpreting has to have 6 cards meaning exactly 6 cards? (no more, no less.)

(Why else should
Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kx
Kx
xx
be a Brown Sticker?)

Sorry, I should have quoted the NZB manual instead:

Quote

Exception: A 2-level opening in a minor that may show a weak hand in either major (6 cards) only or as an option among any number of strong hand types

[pran]

pran, on 2018-May-24, 02:44, said:

This is the first time ever that I saw someone interpreting has to have 6 cards meaning exactly 6 cards? (no more, no less.)

(Why else should
Jxxxxxx [7 spades]
Kx
Kx
xx
be a Brown Sticker?)

nullve, on 2018-May-24, 07:30, said:

Sorry, I should have quoted the NZB manual instead:

"Exception: A 2-level opening in a minor that may show a weak hand in either major (6 cards) only or as an option among any number of strong hand types"

I still do not understand why this should exclude a 7 card major from eligible.
Does NZB really state that the major suit in question must contain exactly 6 cards, no less, no more?

[hrothgar]

pran, on 2018-May-23, 13:35, said:

The way I understand the principle is (for instance) that if a regulation requires a weak opening bid 2M to contain at least 6 cards in the named suit then you may never make such an opening bid with 5 cards in the suit but you are free to psyche the 2M opening bid with 4 or less cards in that suit (provided of course that other relevant conditions for such a psyche is satisfied).

Why? A deviation in length of only one card is too small to be acceptable as a psyche.

If this is true, then responder would never expect that a weak 2 bid that promises 6 cards could be made with 5, in which case opening with 5 is clearly a violation of system and therefore legal as a psyche.

[barmar]

pran, on 2018-May-23, 13:35, said:

The way I understand the principle is (for instance) that if a regulation requires a weak opening bid 2M to contain at least 6 cards in the named suit then you may never make such an opening bid with 5 cards in the suit but you are free to psyche the 2M opening bid with 4 or less cards in that suit (provided of course that other relevant conditions for such a psyche is satisfied).

Why? A deviation in length of only one card is too small to be acceptable as a psyche.

I don't see where you get this from.

The Laws say you're allowed to deviate from your agreements. It doesn't say you're only allowed to do this if the deviation is gross enough to be considered a psych.

The only thing special about psychic calls is that the RA is allowed to restrict the use of artificial psychs (40B2(a)(v)). They're not allowed to restrict natural psychs, nor may they restrict deviations that are small enough that they're not considered psychs.

[pran]

barmar, on 2018-May-24, 09:51, said:

I don't see where you get this from.

The Laws say you're allowed to deviate from your agreements. It doesn't say you're only allowed to do this if the deviation is gross enough to be considered a psych.

The only thing special about psychic calls is that the RA is allowed to restrict the use of artificial psychs (40B2(a)(v)). They're not allowed to restrict natural psychs, nor may they restrict deviations that are small enough that they're not considered psychs.

You must distinguish between partnership understandings/agreements and regulation requirements.

When a regulation states that you must have at least 10 HCP (calculated with the 4-3-2-1 scale) for a particular kind of call you are not allowed to make that call with 9 HCP (claiming that your call is a psyche).
If your agreement is that you must have at least 10 HCP for a particular call then you may (often) vary that to 9 HCP for whatever reason you find relevant (but you may not call it a psyche).

If a regulation specifies that a weak major suit shown at the two-level must contain at least 6 cards then this is an absolute condition which can only be violated by making a (legal) psyche, i.e. with a "gross" deviation which implies that you are at least two cards short.

If your agreement is that you must have at least 6 cards in a suit for a particular call then you are still free to make this call with only 5 cards in that suit (unless you violate some regulation).

In either case a psyche is not legal unless the deviation from partnership understanding is "gross". 9 HCP instead of 10 or 5 cards instead of 6 are not "gross" deviations and therefore not legal psyches.