[barmar]

 pran, on 2018-June-25, 14:10, said:

Can somebody provide a good reason why not he (rather than his LHO) should be responsible for the timing of this pause?

This obsession with the precise timing of the pause has always baffled me. I know the regulations generally recommend "10 seconds", but there's nothing magical about that time. What matters is that the player gives the appearance that he has something to think about, so he has to pause noticeably longer than he would with a boring hand. I fully admit that my hesitations are probably more like 5-7 seconds, as 10 seconds feels interminably long. But I think I achieve the goal of the required hesitation.

[blackshoe]

I would say that "about ten seconds" means roughly 8-12 seconds. 7 seconds is close, 5 is nowhere near close.

There are a couple of problems here:

1. People who have no problem will perceive anything longer than about 5 seconds as too long.
2. People who really do have a problem may need more that 10 or even 12 seconds.
3. People who do have a problem and are also required to time their own tempo now have two problems, each of which will exacerbate the other.

There may be more.

I do think that having the skip bidder time the period is better than having his LHO do it, for all the reasons above. I don't think it solves all problems though.

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2018-June-26, 12:37, said:

I would say that "about ten seconds" means roughly 8-12 seconds. 7 seconds is close, 5 is nowhere near close.

There are a couple of problems here:

1. People who have no problem will perceive anything longer than about 5 seconds as too long.
2. People who really do have a problem may need more that 10 or even 12 seconds.
3. People who do have a problem and are also required to time their own tempo now have two problems, each of which will exacerbate the other.

There may be more.

I do think that having the skip bidder time the period is better than having his LHO do it, for all the reasons above. I don't think it solves all problems though.

If they really have a problem, they don't have to time their tempo, since they'll likely take at least 10 seconds, as you say in #2.

I think there's another problem with the whole premise behind the required hesitation. When I make the required hesitation, I try to feign concentration, as required. But I have a feeling that my "pretend" thinking may be too exaggerated, and doesn't look like the real thing. I squint, cock my head, stare at my cards, etc. But when I'm really thinking, it's hard to be cognizant of my mannerisms, so I have no idea if this is at all similar. Maybe it's better than showing obvious disinterest, but probably doesn't really accomplish the goal of hiding whether I actually have something to think about.

[pescetom]

 blackshoe, on 2018-June-26, 12:37, said:

There are a couple of problems here:

1. People who have no problem will perceive anything longer than about 5 seconds as too long.
2. People who really do have a problem may need more that 10 or even 12 seconds.
3. People who do have a problem and are also required to time their own tempo now have two problems, each of which will exacerbate the other.

That is more than a couple
I would also add:
4. People who do have a problem and know that tempo is being monitored independently and will only be about 10 seconds now have two problems, each of which will exacerbate the other.

In other words, it's still a stress if RHO is going to decide the end of normal tempo. Even the 30 seconds limit for every bid in BBO automatic tournaments is a stress at times.

[pescetom]

 barmar, on 2018-June-27, 08:25, said:

I think there's another problem with the whole premise behind the required hesitation.

There's also another and more fundamental problem, come to that, if we must play Devil's Advocate.
Not all Jump bids require extra tempo and some non-Jump bids do.
An interference of 1NT or Michaels over a major can require more thought than a weak 2 or 3 level interference, for instance.

This argues for elimination of the whole concept of required hesitation, although that is probably throwing the baby out with the water and it doesn't sound like the concept works badly in all the world.

[axman]

 pescetom, on 2018-June-27, 10:13, said:

There's also another and more fundamental problem, come to that, if we must play Devil's Advocate.
Not all Jump bids require extra tempo and some non-Jump bids do.
An interference of 1NT or Michaels over a major can require more thought than a weak 2 or 3 level interference, for instance.

This argues for elimination of the whole concept of required hesitation, although that is probably throwing the baby out with the water and it doesn't sound like the concept works badly in all the world.

If your points are valid, and they probably are not valid, maybe you have a case, but maybe you don't.

My experience is that most players contemplate after a skip bid, even if they are in second, or third position. But you seem to be neglecting that a key to avoiding/minimizing improper inferences is achieved by consistent tempo. So, there is no 'Not all Jump bids require extra tempo time and some non-Jump bids do'. For instance, I rarely need as much as 2sec after a skip bid, yet I strive to take at least 12sec because my experience supports that when I do then the other players, and that includes RHO, thereafter have a more even tempo- making it more fair for everyone.

And, I don't put any stock in there being non jump situations that 'require uneven tempo'. Each player ought to find a cadence that he can maintain most of the time including those 'supposed competitive auctions that need more thought.' If a player needs 9sec then he ought to aim for 9sec- but if he does aim he probably discovers that he rather needs 8sec, then 6sec …. Me, I aim for 1/4sec, but when the system is unfamiliar- half the turns I need as much as 2sec but aim for 5sec so I might be consistent whether in competition or uncontested.

[barmar]

 pescetom, on 2018-June-27, 10:13, said:

There's also another and more fundamental problem, come to that, if we must play Devil's Advocate.
Not all Jump bids require extra tempo and some non-Jump bids do.
An interference of 1NT or Michaels over a major can require more thought than a weak 2 or 3 level interference, for instance.

This argues for elimination of the whole concept of required hesitation, although that is probably throwing the baby out with the water and it doesn't sound like the concept works badly in all the world.

I've pointed out the same thing in the past.

The skip bid hesitation was almost certainly created just out of simplicity. A detailed enumeration of all the situations where we need to hide whether the next player has something to think about would be difficult to create and for players to remember. Jump bids are very obvious.

If we weren't worried about slowing down the game too much, we could require all calls to take a certain amount of time. Screen regulations generally incorporate something like this; if the bids are quick, you delay pushing the board through the screen. And we regularly get suggestions that BBO should delay showing your partner's bid until after RHO has bid.

Even if we did this, it probably would only be partially effective. If you have an auction where the opponents pass throughout, assuming that any delays were due to partner is likely to be correct (I said "likely", so no need to point out that there are exceptions).

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2018-June-27, 08:25, said:

If they really have a problem, they don't have to time their tempo, since they'll likely take at least 10 seconds, as you say in #2.

I think there's another problem with the whole premise behind the required hesitation. When I make the required hesitation, I try to feign concentration, as required. But I have a feeling that my "pretend" thinking may be too exaggerated, and doesn't look like the real thing. I squint, cock my head, stare at my cards, etc. But when I'm really thinking, it's hard to be cognizant of my mannerisms, so I have no idea if this is at all similar. Maybe it's better than showing obvious disinterest, but probably doesn't really accomplish the goal of hiding whether I actually have something to think about.

Seriously, do you do all this because you are taking the piss? Virtually all people just look at their cards with no mannerisms whatsoever.

 barmar, on 2018-June-28, 09:44, said:

I've pointed out the same thing in the past.

The skip bid hesitation was almost certainly created just out of simplicity. A detailed enumeration of all the situations where we need to hide whether the next player has something to think about would be difficult to create and for players to remember. Jump bids are very obvious.

Some jurisdictions also use the Stop card for competitive bids at the three level or above. This at least covers more situations, that of course not all of them.

[pran]

 Vampyr, on 2018-June-28, 10:41, said:

Some jurisdictions also use the Stop card for competitive bids at the three level or above. This at least covers more situations, that of course not all of them.

We do use the STOP procedure in Norway also with competitive calls at the three level or above.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2018-June-28, 10:41, said:

Seriously, do you do all this because you are taking the piss? Virtually all people just look at their cards with no mannerisms whatsoever.

I'm trying not to show disinterest.

When people really have a problem, they have all sorts of mannerisms. They fidget, they fold their hand and reopen it, they furrow their brow.

They also often do this significantly longer than 10 seconds. 10 seconds is longer than "I have absolutely nothing to think about", but not really as along as "I have a problem".

[blackshoe]

I wonder who decided ten seconds was long enough, and why?

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2018-June-29, 08:28, said:

I'm trying not to show disinterest.

When people really have a problem, they have all sorts of mannerisms. They fidget, they fold their hand and reopen it, they furrow their brow.

They also often do this significantly longer than 10 seconds. 10 seconds is longer than "I have absolutely nothing to think about", but not really as along as "I have a problem".

Try to read more carefully. I said that people look at their cards with no mannerisms at all, and I didn’t say “when they are required to pause”: I meant all the time. Perhaps where you live, people engage in the kind of coffeehousing you describe, but it is not common here.

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2018-June-30, 05:00, said:

Try to read more carefully. I said that people look at their cards with no mannerisms at all, and I didn’t say “when they are required to pause”: I meant all the time. Perhaps where you live, people engage in the kind of coffeehousing you describe, but it is not common here.

99% of the time that's true.

But when people go into the tank for a long time, they do all sorts of things. I've seen champions do this while I've been operating vugraph. Of course, if you take the better part of a minute to make a decision, mannerisms on top of this are probably not relevant.

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2018-June-29, 19:01, said:

I wonder who decided ten seconds was long enough, and why?

I (for one) have no idea, but if it was just a guess I would say (from my experience) that it was very successful.

[blackshoe]

I don't disagree, Sven, I'm just curious about the history.

[pescetom]

 barmar, on 2018-June-30, 15:32, said:

99% of the time that's true.

But when people go into the tank for a long time, they do all sorts of things. I've seen champions do this while I've been operating vugraph. Of course, if you take the better part of a minute to make a decision, mannerisms on top of this are probably not relevant.

I imagine that champions in vugraph were playing with screens, which should make their mannerisms irrelevant as far as UI is concerned ?

Yesterday I had the honour to play against (and the luck to beat) a World Master, and was surprised that he didn't make much attempt to remain inexpressive... but I guess it wasn't the Bermuba Bowl, and he did explain patiently to my partner why she should have ditched the K♣ straight away