[heart76]

nekthen, on 2018-October-08, 11:11, said:

I will now go out on a limb and bid 4N and hope that he understands that I want him to pass!

That's what I did, bid 4nt hoping to make 10. But I thought 2-3 mins because it was not simple to see why partner would not X in the balancing position.
I actually placed him with a 5-5-0-3, so that IMO he also had the chance to remove to 5♣, where I hope to concede 1♣+1♠.

Unfortunately, I regretted the choice.
A 5503 would open with say 8 HCP, so he must be weaker. He needs to have something not biddable in 1st seat. We played multi, so he had passed with 10xxxx A9xxxxx / x, which makes 4♥.
The unfortunate thing is that the alternative I was considering was 4♥ since that would give value to Kx. 4♠ is down 1.

[Tramticket]

heart76, on 2018-October-08, 12:34, said:

he had passed with 10xxxx A9xxxxx / x, which makes 4♥.

I think that your partner has done far too much. I would probably pass with his hand, or second choice is 3♥. Even with this shape, he doesn't have the values to force to game!

A simple 3NT over-call by you would have allowed you to comfortably reach 4♥.

[Tramticket]

heart76, on 2018-October-08, 12:26, said:

Yes, of course. I did pass in tempo, a couple of seconds after the STOP card was removed.

This makes you partner's 4♦ protection even more crazy.

[mikeh]

First part: this looks to me like an easy 3N overcall. It comes with no guarantees but this is a bidder's game and we have a good playing hand. Sure, I may be sorry if LHO doubles, but he rates not to be able to do so. I'd bid 3N at imps, because the game bonus is too valuable to risk passing, and I bid 3N at pairs because the frequency of gain seems to me sufficient to offset the occasional disaster.

If I were to have passed, I would have done so in tempo. Consider the problem if you break tempo and pass (and I appreciate that you will have waited no matter what, due to the skip bid, so 'tempo' here is a relative term). Partner may not choose, from various LA options, any that was suggested by the BIT. Since he passed in first seat, it would be unusual for him to have a really clear non-pass action. Not impossible, but very unlikely, with the result being that your slow pass effectively bars him (actually, it is worse than barring him. If he takes action anyway, you get to keep that result if it is worse for you than passing would have been, and otherwise the auction is rolled back).

Having committed the pass, I now have to consider what to do over 4D. This is apparently not a regular partnership, so I don't have any clues as to how light he might be to open 1M with extreme shape. Could he have, as one example, KQxxx Axxxxx x x? I could...I would not open that hand, but devotees of such things as the Rule of 20 probably would.

How about KQxxxx QJxxxx void x? I'd pass with no concerns because, imo, this sort of hand is best shown by passing and then showing a 2-suiter, which warns partner that I don't have the defence that, imo, an opening bid should imply.

Bearing all this in mind, we are playing in a major. The idea of playing in notrump is silly. He won't usually have the entries to establish his suits and run them, since we have no length in either suit. And he will be short in both minors....if we play in notrump, we will probably be playing out of our hand a lot.

I'd like to be sure of finding our 8 card fit: I think that there is an excellent chance that he has some 6-5 major hand, and might be 6-6. If the latter, then either guess likely works, but if the former, then the 6-2 is likely to be superior to the 5-2.

However, I don't think I am quite strong enough to bid 5♦. RHO is unlikely to lead diamonds when his partner fails to double 5D, and so will lead clubs, which is not going to be best for us. I think I bid 4H.

Why hearts?

Partner will probably pass some 5=6 hands where, were the majors reversed, he'd open 1♠. If he opens light 1♠ he can rebid hearts twice and I'd know 10 of his cards. If he opens light with 1H, he may never get to bid his spades, and we may miss a 5-3 spade fit. Hence a good player will tend to have longer hearts than spades on this auction, rather than longer spades.

I may miss slam. Indeed, I may well take 12 tricks from my side when 10 or 11 would be the limit from his side. Picture KQ10xx QJ10xxx void xx on a diamond lead....whereas, as noted above, if I cuebid, RHO should hear the non-double and lead a club.

[eagles123]

nekthen, on 2018-October-08, 11:11, said:

Partner only has one available bid after passing and that is double. He has no idea how the missing points are divided. If he doubles and I bid 4♣, he can bid 4♦. Partner's 4♦ bid is suicidal (cos I will kill him myself afterwards!)
I will now go out on a limb and bid 4N and hope that he understands that I want him to pass!

what a load of rubbish

[mikeh]

heart76, on 2018-October-08, 12:34, said:

That's what I did, bid 4nt hoping to make 10. But I thought 2-3 mins because it was not simple to see why partner would not X in the balancing position.
I actually placed him with a 5-5-0-3, so that IMO he also had the chance to remove to 5♣, where I hope to concede 1♣+1♠.

Unfortunately, I regretted the choice.
A 5503 would open with say 8 HCP, so he must be weaker. He needs to have something not biddable in 1st seat. We played multi, so he had passed with 10xxxx A9xxxxx / x, which makes 4♥.
The unfortunate thing is that the alternative I was considering was 4♥ since that would give value to Kx. 4♠ is down 1.

I had not seen this post when I wrote mine.

4D was nonsensical.

But so too was your comment that he would have opened with 8 hcp if 55 in the majors. That would be ok, if you were playing a forcing club method and disclosed on your CC that your 1M could be 8-15 (which I have seen at high-level events). But for standard bidders to be opening on 8 hcp is playing terrible bridge, for a host of reasons, not least of which is the impossibility of ever limiting your hand properly should partner have a good hand.

There are a lot of inexperienced players opening ever lighter and lighter, and yet (not surprisingly) I never encounter them in the late rounds of a swiss, or a KO, and rarely see them threatening to win a serious pairs game. It's 'fun' to be in every auction, which is why a method known as EHAA was (mildly) popular a generation ago, until the proponents discovered that they weren't winning much. Yes, they had lots of wonderful tops, and lots of stories, but they couldn't win playing an undisciplined method.

[mikeh]

nekthen, on 2018-October-08, 11:11, said:

Partner only has one available bid after passing and that is double. He has no idea how the missing points are divided. If he doubles and I bid 4♣, he can bid 4♦. Partner's 4♦ bid is suicidal (cos I will kill him myself afterwards!)
I will now go out on a limb and bid 4N and hope that he understands that I want him to pass!

Lesson one for bidding on misfits: do NOT bid notrump unless your suits are running without help from partner.

When one has a misfit, and one's suits are not running right away, the defenders can defend accurately and effectively. If you try to set up dummy's suit(s), they get to choose whether to hold off their winners or they attack dummy's entries..any entries in the side suits will be short, by definition, and thus easy to dislodge. They use the same tactic on your hand should you choose to try to set that up. They often don't need to set up their own tricks...they will come naturally as your hand, or dummy's, collapses.

When you have a misfit, get out as soon as possible in the least unpleasant trump suit.

While 4D is an odd bid (and as we learn later in this thread, an egregious overbid), bidding 4N is even worse. The fact that you think it even plausible (as, it seems, did the OP) simply demonstrates why 3N was the correct action over 3D. However, having passed, 4H is the clear choice for the reasons I elaborate on in my long post on this thread...a post I wrote before I found out how silly partner had been.

[rmnka447]

I missed this thread, but would bid 3 NT over 3 ♦. Over 3 NT, partner clearly has to make a bid to get you to 4 ♥. ("What do you call a 7 card suit? Trump")

If the auction is passed back to partner and I was partner, I'd just bid 3 ♥ not 4 ♦. Preemptor's partner didn't make any further move over the preempt, so is unlikely to have a huge hand. Opposite a stiff ♥ with 1 or 2 other useful cards in partner's hand, 3 ♥ should be pretty close to making.