[Liversidge]

I have a partner who believes that with opening points you have to find a bid after the opponents open the bidding 1♠. I have demonstrated a hand with 15 HCP where I don't have the suit quality to bid my suit at the 2 level, and I don't have a hand suitable for a takeout double (doubleton), and I don't have a spade stop for a 1NT overcall.
Can anyone give me an extreme example of a hand stronger than 15 HCP where you would pass over opps' 1♠? There must come a point where you just have to bid something.

[P_Marlowe]

Liversidge, on 2018-December-20, 05:40, said:

I have a partner who believes that with opening points you have to find a bid after the opponents open the bidding 1♠. I have demonstrated a hand with 15 HCP where I don't have the suit quality to bid my suit at the 2 level, and I don't have a hand suitable for a takeout double (doubleton), and I don't have a spade stop for a 1NT overcall.
Can anyone give me an extreme example of a hand stronger than 15 HCP where you would pass over opps' 1♠? There must come a point where you just have to bid something.

Unbalanced, with a single, lots of spades.

[Tramticket]

Liversidge, on 2018-December-20, 05:40, said:

I have a partner who believes that with opening points you have to find a bid after the opponents open the bidding 1♠. I have demonstrated a hand with 15 HCP where I don't have the suit quality to bid my suit at the 2 level, and I don't have a hand suitable for a takeout double (doubleton), and I don't have a spade stop for a 1NT overcall.
Can anyone give me an extreme example of a hand stronger than 15 HCP where you would pass over opps' 1♠? There must come a point where you just have to bid something.

---

There is a frequent mis-conception amongst less experienced players that opening hands should always be bid,

You can see how it arises. They pick up the hand out of the board, count their points and decide that they have an opening bid. They then look to see who is dealer and find out in time that it isn't them - avoiding the pitfall of bidding out of turn. They wait patiently for others to pass so that they can make their chosen bid, but unfortunately one of the opponents has the temerity to bid, before the bid gets to them. These less experienced players are unable to re-evaluate the hand in light of the new information, so make the bid that they were always going to make - a level higher if necessary.

All good books and teachers emphasise that overcalling is not the same as opening the bidding. An overcall should have some definite objectives, including one or more of:
- Suggest a contract for us to play.
- suggest a sacrifice.
- Suggest a lead.
- Rob the opponents of bidding space and make it difficult for opponents to reach their opitimum contract.

To achieve these objectives, you usually want a good quality suit (5-card in length at the one level, 6-card usually at the two level).

[IGoHomeNow]

Liversidge, on 2018-December-20, 05:40, said:

I have a partner who believes that with opening points you have to find a bid after the opponents open the bidding 1♠. I have demonstrated a hand with 15 HCP where I don't have the suit quality to bid my suit at the 2 level, and I don't have a hand suitable for a takeout double (doubleton), and I don't have a spade stop for a 1NT overcall.
Can anyone give me an extreme example of a hand stronger than 15 HCP where you would pass over opps' 1♠? There must come a point where you just have to bid something.

17 points....
KQJxx AKQ Q xxxx

Barring a big fit, this hand will play horribly for us. 5 tricks at NT are surely to be had, but that assumes they don't have tons of minor tricks to cash either immediately or before I establish my 2 spade winners.

Having 5+ length in their Spades will usually make your hand pretty nearly worthless on offense unless you can run the suit quickly.

Even less extreme hands are best passed unless a NT overcall can be made.

14 points.
KJxx QJxx AJx Qx

Even with the 4 hearts, this hand simply has no good call. If you are one of those donkeys who either pulls 2C and expects partner to know you have this junk or a donkey who simply passes 2c, you will be getting a lot of bad scores.

Change suits around to this.... KJxx Qx AJx QJxx and now bidding is even worse.

The bottom line is that long Spades implies defense unless you can play NT. WIth my first hand, that is really not likely. At least with my second hand, finding some values in partners hand will make NT playable, but not usually biddable.

If I simply could not pass under threat of violence, I would overcall 1NT with this second hand (even playing 16-18) since 1NT is far more likely to be our correct contract and also be possible to find.

When you have a hand like this, there is simply too great a chance that nobody has a playable spot and even if you have one, finding it is really difficult. Even when you have 4333 shape, it is far from certain that you will find partner with a 5 card suit and if he only has a 4 card suit, the 4-3 probably won't play very well.

[RD350LC]

IGoHomeNow, on 2018-December-21, 00:32, said:

17 points....
KQJxx AKQ Q xxxx

Barring a big fit, this hand will play horribly for us. 5 tricks at NT are surely to be had, but that assumes they don't have tons of minor tricks to cash either immediately or before I establish my 2 spade winners.

Having 5+ length in their Spades will usually make your hand pretty nearly worthless on offense unless you can run the suit quickly.

Even less extreme hands are best passed unless a NT overcall can be made.

14 points.
KJxx QJxx AJx Qx

Even with the 4 hearts, this hand simply has no good call. If you are one of those donkeys who either pulls 2C and expects partner to know you have this junk or a donkey who simply passes 2c, you will be getting a lot of bad scores.

Change suits around to this.... KJxx Qx AJx QJxx and now bidding is even worse.

The bottom line is that long Spades implies defense unless you can play NT. WIth my first hand, that is really not likely. At least with my second hand, finding some values in partners hand will make NT playable, but not usually biddable.

If I simply could not pass under threat of violence, I would overcall 1NT with this second hand (even playing 16-18) since 1NT is far more likely to be our correct contract and also be possible to find.

When you have a hand like this, there is simply too great a chance that nobody has a playable spot and even if you have one, finding it is really difficult. Even when you have 4333 shape, it is far from certain that you will find partner with a 5 card suit and if he only has a 4 card suit, the 4-3 probably won't play very well.

I have read an article by an ACBL Bulletin contributor (I believe it was Lynn Berg) who clearly states that a hand worth an opening bid is not necessarily worth an overcall. She indicated that once she passed an 17 hcp hand, because she had no good bid. She stated that until you have passed a hand of that strength, don't complain to her about overcalls.
Mike Lawrence is an advocate of overcalling on 4 card suits (at the one level ONLY) if you have no other option (no take-out double, NT overcall, etc.), but I will not do this easily. Certainly NEVER at the two level.
One thing that I have noticed that a lot of people will indicate Blackwood (virtually everybody), transfers, but very few indicate that they do take-out, negative and responsive doubles. The first two (at least) are essential for players who want to advance beyond the beginner stage.

[pescetom]

RD350LC, on 2018-December-21, 08:38, said:

I have read an article by an ACBL Bulletin contributor (I believe it was Lynn Berg) who clearly states that a hand worth an opening bid is not necessarily worth an overcall.

And the opposite is true too: a hand worth an overcall is not necessarily worth an opening bid. As Tramticket said, they are two different things with different purposes.

RD350LC, on 2018-December-21, 08:38, said:

One thing that I have noticed that a lot of people will indicate Blackwood (virtually everybody), transfers, but very few indicate that they do take-out, negative and responsive doubles. The first two (at least) are essential for players who want to advance beyond the beginner stage.

I think everyone plays take-out nowadays. Negative doubles are arguably a special case of take-out: around here almost everyone plays them, but few know they have a specific name. But yes it's a convention that should be in a profile, although as always just listing the convention name guarantees very little: you are still guessing about the field of application, responses and developments which are all far from being standardized. The field of application in particular is tricky with doubles, where every partnership has their agreements (hopefully legal) on when they are for business rather than take-out.

[fourdad]

The most underused bid in bridge is pass.

[pescetom]

fourdad, on 2018-December-21, 13:15, said:

The most underused bid in bridge is pass.

But the most underused call is redouble

[RD350LC]

pescetom, on 2018-December-21, 09:55, said:

And the opposite is true too: a hand worth an overcall is not necessarily worth an opening bid. As Tramticket said, they are two different things with different purposes.

With this I agree. There are many hands worth an overcall that are not worth an opening bid, and vice versa.

pescetom, on 2018-December-21, 09:55, said:

I think everyone plays take-out nowadays. Negative doubles are arguably a special case of take-out: around here almost everyone plays them, but few know they have a specific name. But yes it's a convention that should be in a profile, although as always just listing the convention name guarantees very little: you are still guessing about the field of application, responses and developments which are all far from being standardized. The field of application in particular is tricky with doubles, where every partnership has their agreements (hopefully legal) on when they are for business rather than take-out.

I have had the unfortunate experience of encountering players who have no idea what a takeout double is. They would pass my double because they had a balanced 3 count-saying that they had no bid.

[RD350LC]

fourdad, on 2018-December-21, 13:15, said:

The most underused bid in bridge is pass.

There are many "players" out there who seem to forget that Pass is an option.

[rmnka447]

I'm very much in sync with Tramticket's comments.

I'm also in agreement with fourdad's quip. But I would add to it something that a very good player said to me ages ago.

"Pass is the most underrated call in bridge."

In the decades since, I've come to appreciate the wisdom of that statement more and more. Properly used Pass can significantly improve clarity both when you use it and when you bid. One's bids become better defined. Partner can also take some inferences from when you fail to bid.

[m1cha]

Liversidge, on 2018-December-20, 05:40, said:

Can anyone give me an extreme example of a hand stronger than 15 HCP where you would pass over opps' 1♠? There must come a point where you just have to bid something.

Some real-life examples.

Yesterday in a robot duplicate I felt I have to pass this wonderful 17+ count after opps had opened 1♣:
Link 1
Partner passed, too, for 1♣-1 and I got 67 % because 3NT just won't make. (4♦ does, but would you play it?)
Conclusion 1: 1m can be a good contract when played by the opps.

Today in another robot duplicate I passed this good 14 count without a good call after opps had opened 2♦. Okay, that's on the two level but wouldn't have been much different over 1♦.
Link 2
Partner doubled, so I ended up playing and making 4♥. Others played and made 3NT.
Conclusion 2: Passing doesn't mean you miss your game.

Just a few minutes later another 16-count, same tournament as above, and I felt I have to bid over a 2♥ opener. The result was 2NT-3 for -300. The opponents can make 2♥+1 for 140 and no more than that. Yet I gained 1.9 IMPs on this one as most others on my axis went down for more:
Link 3
Conclucsion 3: Don't be greedy around Christmas time.

[Cyberyeti]

m1cha, on 2018-December-28, 19:29, said:

Some real-life examples.

Yesterday in a robot duplicate I felt I have to pass this wonderful 17+ count after opps had opened 1♣:
Link 1
Partner passed, too, for 1♣-1 and I got 67 % because 3NT just won't make. (4♦ does, but would you play it?)
Conclusion 1: 1m can be a good contract when played by the opps.

Today in another robot duplicate I passed this good 14 count without a good call after opps had opened 2♦. Okay, that's on the two level but wouldn't have been much different over 1♦.
Link 2
Partner doubled, so I ended up playing and making 4♥. Others played and made 3NT.
Conclusion 2: Passing doesn't mean you miss your game.

Just a few minutes later another 16-count, same tournament as above, and I felt I have to bid over a 2♥ opener. The result was 2NT-3 for -300. The opponents can make 2♥+1 for 140 and no more than that. Yet I gained 1.9 IMPs on this one as most others on my axis went down for more:
Link 3
Conclucsion 3: Don't be greedy around Christmas time.

Terrible examples:

1. If I overcall I overcall NT and we play a part score for more than your -1.
2: You got really lucky, most of the time hearts are not splitting 3-3 and the correct game of 3N plays better (partner's ♥9 is also a really lucky card)
3: I would overcall the same 2N, partner will have the W hand with a spade less and you'll defend 2♥ with 3N more than decent.

[nullve]

Ridiculous hand from a recent Robot Rebate 55 %:

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2♦ and 2♠ were, eh, table feel, and making an overtrick (yes, should have been two) was worth 83.3 %.

Auctions at the other tables:

Spoiler

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(1 table)

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(1 table)

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(2 tables)

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(1 table)

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(2 tables)

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(1 table)

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(1 table)

[m1cha]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-29, 11:08, said:

Terrible examples:

Just real bridge life. But I hope people didn't take my 'conclusions' more serious than necessary.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-29, 11:08, said:

1. If I overcall I overcall NT and we play a part score for more than your -1.

Yes but if you had defended against 1♣ you would have played it -2 (as I should have) for -200 which is besser than your part score .
Overcalling 1NT with this kind of hand did not work out well in Nullve's last example (see the spoiler), by the way, really funny follow-up bidding there.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-29, 11:08, said:

2: You got really lucky, most of the time hearts are not splitting 3-3 and the correct game of 3N plays better (partner's ♥9 is also a really lucky card)

Right, but in the first place I got very unlucky since I bid 4♥ only because the label of the double promised 4-4 in the majors. I would have bid 3NT otherwise.

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-29, 11:08, said:

3: I would overcall the same 2N, partner will have the W hand with a spade less and you'll defend 2♥ with 3N more than decent.

I agree, 2NT is very normal. But I suggest you take the 5th spade, too.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-29, 11:08, said:

1: If I overcall I overcall NT and we play a part score for more than your -1.

Interesting choice to over-call 1NT with a void (10764 - AKQJ AK543) . I certainly prefer it to passing, but I would be tempted to bid 1D, notwithstanding the four-card suit. I would also not be pushing on to game with these hands at MPs.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2018-December-30, 02:09, said:

Interesting choice to over-call 1NT with a void (10764 - AKQJ AK543) . I certainly prefer it to passing, but I would be tempted to bid 1D, notwithstanding the four-card suit. I would also not be pushing on to game with these hands at MPs.

Yeah, 1♦ is fine too, and I would overcall if the AKQJ was in a major, I tend to find that 1N limiting the hand can stop you going overboard.

Actually if the club can be short (which I didn't think about earlier), I might well overcall 1♦, as if E doesn't have clubs, my hand is too good for 1N (our overcalls are VERY sound and 1♦ over 1♣ because it shuts out nothing requires more than a 1♦ opener)

[Cyberyeti]

m1cha, on 2018-December-29, 18:57, said:

I agree, 2NT is very normal. But I suggest you take the 5th spade, too.

The reason I said that was because partner with ♠AQJxx might not pass out the weak 2, with only 4 he always does

[m1cha]

Cyberyeti, on 2018-December-30, 05:04, said:

The reason I said that was because partner with ♠AQJxx might not pass out the weak 2, with only 4 he always does

I see. The reason I said it was because 4♠ makes while 3NT is down with only 4 spades.

[Cyberyeti]

m1cha, on 2018-December-30, 10:35, said:

I see. The reason I said it was because 4♠ makes while 3NT is down with only 4 spades.

Yeah, I'd never hold the E hand for a 2♥ opener, that's 1♥ for me. 3N is still decent (diamonds 3-3/J/Jx) opposite only 4 spades but doesn't make this time.