[ray_p]

I think You're taking a sensible approach of 'When in Rome....

However I think you can be bit more pro-active than that and recommend the club specifically adopt a recognised standard and clearly defined policy of upto EBU level 2 conventions even though not ebu affiliated, (-which seems to be the right level for a low-level club)

And with regard to the hand (although largely irrelevant for the underlying issue really), you should be on safe ground that opponent is totally wrong to claim he suffered and didn't make what he knew to be the correct bid because he thought his partner might not understand his Bid! That is absolutely their problem and the committee should tell him as such.

[GrahamJson]

I think west may have a legitimate gripe. At our club it is normal to state your methods briefly at the start of each round. In this case the summary should include “transfer responses to 1C”. This gives oppo a chance to agree a simple defense (e.g “double is takeout of the suit shown” or whatever). It’s all very well alerting bids such as this, but unless oppo have an agreed defense this doesn’t necessarily help a lot. Of course you can’t go through your entire system, but should certainly highlight artificial bids that come up frequently. For example, our summary is “12-14, four card majors, multi 2D and two way two bids which show the suit bid”.

[TylerE]

IGoHomeNow, on 2019-August-09, 05:24, said:

This kind of nonsense is why clubs have novice games (and here in the US, other restricted Master point games)

THAT kind of nonsense is how we've gotten a generation of players with zero competitive spirit, afraid to play anyone who might (*gasp*) actually be better than them.

But by all means keep them in their bubbles as the game dies.

[steve2005]

West is the one who needs a chat with.

[steve2005]

IGoHomeNow, on 2019-August-09, 05:24, said:

This kind of nonsense is why clubs have novice games (and here in the US, other restricted Master point games) Having said this, I do believe those who play an artificial system that is surely outside the knowledge of most opponents should provide a sound suggested defense As for the director....I sympathize with the desire to placate the sheep, who might choose to go away, but it just seems wrong to impose special rules for spoiled children. One reason people use these systems is to gain advantage. Nothing at all wrong with that. This is a competition!

Baloney-Even a novice knows and has experience with what to do over a transfer of 1NT it is the same idea with transfer responses.
West went off the deep end!

[akwoo]

TylerE, on 2019-August-09, 14:44, said:

THAT kind of nonsense is how we've gotten a generation of players with zero competitive spirit, afraid to play anyone who might (*gasp*) actually be better than them.

But by all means keep them in their bubbles as the game dies.

I live in a rural area.

Except for people associated with the university or the hospital, every adult whose brains are capable of handling walking and chewing gum simultaneously has left. Neither the university nor the hospital is that big.

Why would you expect there to be enough people here with competitive spirit for a cognitively challenging game?

I'd rather have a bad game than no game. Many of the people in the game are not (and never will be) very good bridge players, but they are excellent people with whom I am happy to have an excuse to spend a social evening.

Let me broaden this point to a wider one. Our society as a whole is facing a massive crisis as jobs that are not cognitively challenging (and, increasingly jobs that are somewhat cognitively challenging) get automated, leaving many people of average intelligence competing for the few remaining jobs that they are capable of doing. If civilization is not to collapse, we will need to figure out a way for people of average (or even simply non-exceptional) intelligence to meaningfully participate in our society.

If we can't figure out a way to be inclusive of average-intelligence people in bridge, what hope do we have of figuring out how to include them in society as a whole?

[TylerE]

There's a big difference between being "inclusive" and "coddling".

[joemanjo]

Hello Felicity, I have not read the other posts, however, I have a suggestion that might be useful to deal with the situation. I feel clubs are justified in saying what is "Highly Unusual Method" as per their patrons. Therefore you could choose to adopt what is advised against HUM systems in normal tournament circuit. Why dont you carry a written defense to your unusual methods (one copy for each opponents) and suggest that they play these? It might slow things down a little, and if your system is complicated, you will carry a lot of baggage, but then, it is only fair against opponents who are not comfortable with nasty things springing up at them. At the very least both opponents will be aware of what the other person is doing. Did you suggest this during your sit down coffee with the TD? Good luck, Manoj.

[pescetom]

IGoHomeNow, on 2019-August-09, 05:24, said:

One reason people use these systems is to gain advantage. Nothing at all wrong with that. This is a competition!

And the advantage is not automatic, all methods have their disadvantages and some require a lot of study / practice too. I suspect that transfer Walsh requires quite a bit of partnership work, maybe mikeh could comment on that - I know that when Duboin started playing transfers he spent weeks working on it, and still never managed to convince Zia to try it.

[danhputnam]

Two suggestions: 1) Practice your system on BBO, especially if you can find a decent pair of opponents to work with. 2) Discuss with the director how much toning down is needed at the club. The club needs to make the game enjoyable for players of all levels, or else the game dies. They are allowed to bar odd systems and conventions. But the biggest objections come at the one-level, where competition is most likely. There may be few adjustments requested, or perhaps you can offer to print a simple defense to your one-level bids and combine that with a pre-alert. I don't know the atmosphere at your club, but I find that most regular players are willing to deal with simple adjustments (ex. double the transfer bid is stolen bid. Bid their suit as takeout.)

[661_Pete]

FelicityR, on 2019-August-08, 20:52, said:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all your replies.

I think the problem lies in that ours is a non-affiliated EBU club, and that I live in a rural location and the nearest EBU club is over 20 miles away. I do not drive, my regular partner has night vision problems (so feels not confident driving in the evening) and public transport is non existent in the evening. We have visited a couple of other clubs during the day but found the standard in the afternoon sessions very mediocre - kitchen level bridge.

I was about to echo the suggestion already made by others: find another club! Preferably an EBU-affiliated one.

But I can see from the above that this is not an easy option for you. I would urge you to try and find some solution to the transport problem. Perhaps you can find a club where another player already lives in your direction, and is prepared to car-share? We have one player at our club who regularly arrives by taxi. She is slightly disabled and public transport would be difficult for her - even so, it must be costing her a fortune! I don't know how far away she lives - and I wouldn't suggest that for a 40 mile round trip! But there may be a way.

Regarding your present, rather 'unfriendly' club - well speaking from my experience, there is no ready solution which involves staying on at that club. Sorry to be so negative...

[fourdad]

Find another club!! Seriously, the guy missed game because he screwed up!

[phoenixmj]

I am curious - how popular is transfer walsh in the us? acbl.

I don't think I can remember anyone alerting it. I have played in both open and in point limited games and in tournaments in the us.

Is there a reason why it is NOT popular or why it IS popular?

[butoi]

To tone down? What?
house bridge is played at home. Otherwise, bridge is played in tournaments from club to nationals and international all with specific rules.

This is what the new (american wave) has done to the game. Same 'glorification of mediocrity' diluting the values of the game and tainting the beauty of mind creativity that it allows to talented players.
I would not accept this ruling, nor suggestion. You have conceded more than you should just because you didn't chase the cheap sensation of narcissism. Others do, and that is their problem.
Bottom line.
Probably you should find an other club.
Regards

[paulg]

phoenixmj, on 2019-August-10, 10:52, said:

I am curious - how popular is transfer walsh in the us? acbl.

I don't think I can remember anyone alerting it. I have played in both open and in point limited games and in tournaments in the us.

Is there a reason why it is NOT popular or why it IS popular?

It is increasing in popularity now that it is permitted on the Open Chart in the new convention charts. This is the chart that is recommended for club play. At the recent nationals in Vegas, this was the first time that people did not blink when I said we were playing transfer responses to a short club.

Previously it was a Mid-Chart convention and only permitted in relatively high profile events. It was not permitted at most clubs since they used the GCC. This naturally curtailed its popularity.

[paulg]

FelicityR, on 2019-August-08, 06:34, said:

It's bad enough having the TD being called to your table, but it was a bit more disconcerting when he suggested a few hours later (even though he is an acquaintance and occasionally plays rubber bridge at my house) that we need to have a "little chat about this over a coffee, Felicity."

There had a few complaints at the club (in the UK) about the methods my partner and I use now that we are playing regularly with the idea of playing in tournaments again, something I haven't done for years.

Ours is a small club where many of the players are elderly, and most still play 4M Acol. We play a basic 2/1 system with a range of conventions, including now Walsh and Transfer Walsh. Everything is alerted. But that doesn't satisfy the purists.

I have a lot of sympathy with your situation and it makes me appreciate how lucky I am at my local club. I am the only regular tournament player at the club and play a short club with my wife, whereas the field is all playing 4-card majors, weak no trump, mostly Benjy; not everyone plays transfers, some play Michaels. I don't play transfer responses at the club but there would not be any problem if I did.

Part of the reason is that I'm relaxed at the club and, although many are a little intimidated by having to play me, they know that they are not going to be disadvantaged by facing any unfamiliar methods I play. I'm always happy to provide defences to methods, suggest what bids might mean, and generally make life easier for them because winning at the club is not important to me.

Most club members are initially put off by having to face unusual methods. You need to create an environment that shows that you are playing these methods to improve your bridge and not destructively to make it more difficult for them: providing defences, as suggested, might well help. Advising people to bid 'as if I bid one spade, but you can double to show hearts and bid one spade as takeout' would probably take the sting out of the situation.

In time, if you are successful in tournaments, you might find that club members start enjoying your success.

Good luck.

[P_Marlowe]

paulg, on 2019-August-11, 04:21, said:

<Snip>

Most club members are initially put off by having to face unusual methods. You need to create an environment that shows that you are playing these methods to improve your bridge and not destructively to make it more difficult for them: providing defences, as suggested, might well help. Advising people to bid 'as if I bid one spade, but you can double to show hearts and bid one spade as takeout' would probably take the sting out of the situation.

In time, if you are successful in tournaments, you might find that club members start enjoying your success.

I can echo this.

It helps also a bit, if you make yourself available for other Players, yes you loose 1 or 2 sessions in a week / month,
but it creates good will.

[thepossum]

I must have been brought up learning a different game with different rules, ethics and philosophy to the one some players are describing above. It does seem that many of the new attitudes in bridge have taken over all disciplines, industries and even professions, sadly

I would also add that some seem to not know the difference between being a novice/beginner/advanced etc at anything

Finally many seem to think that complexity is superior intellectually and congitively in anything. Many of the best and smartest people in the world at anything prefer simplicity over excessive complexity. Complexity is often usd as a crutch by less able people to undermine players who are better with higher cognitive ability That applies in many fields of endeavour, not just bridge. Its the same with technology in sport. People often mistake having the best equipment as meaning you are the best player. Sometimes the two converge and tend to go together over time but a fair sporting endeavour tests everyone with similar level of equipment and technology A bidding system is a bit like a racing car or a bicycle or other piece of sporting kit. If you are the best player in the club you can win using basic systems and should play at a level your opponents understand and be able to beat them failry, not unfairly And if you only want to play people of the same level of skill or bidding systems find a club where everyone plays the same system.

PS I like the idea of giving a written defence to your opponents in such a situation. Maybe even be good enough to train people in your method and how to defend against it at the club. That would be in the spirit of the game of bridge which is not about misleading people. The game is about perfect information between pairs. Unless the rules have changed in the last 40 years

PPS And some of the issues about the survival of the game. It is the people who put down and humiliate people at low levels who kill things. Those who make things unnecessarily complex. Those who patronise and insult and mock people. Those who mistake complexity and advanced knowledge with ability and intellect. They are the people who kill any discipline, endeavour, sport, game, profession. Any expert worth their salt encourages people with potential and can play at their level as partner or opponent without humiliating them. That is what good experts and teachers do. They do not drive people away from games with complexity and humiliation. And any advanced or expert player who needs to use excessively complex systems to gain an edge over less experienced players is clearly not the advanced/expert player they think they are

PPPS A little personal anecdote. I've been playing for 40 years and would regard myself as a fairly good judge of a hand, decent bidder and average player with fairly basic tools at my disposal. Recently I started to play with someone who had only been playing for 6-12 months, doing classes, piles of tomes on unnecessarily complex bidding systems. For some reason they seemed to think they were the experienced and good player and started trying to teach me how to play. All they are doing is filling their heads like parrots with masses of systems without any broader knoweldge of hand assessment, play etc. Its a bit like GiB tourneys. GiB has been filled with a very complex convention card. Its taken me a year to come to terms with most of them and now be very competitive with some good players (at robot tourneys with tooltips I hasten to add ). That is not because my bridge has imporved in a year but because I have come to terms with the alien systems now. My brain hasnt improved, my bridge knowldege and skills havent imporved. I played better 30-40 years ago when I was young. Its harder now cognitevely because of age. We get our edge through different means

[FelicityR]

thepossum, on 2019-August-16, 17:38, said:

I must have been brought up learning a different game with different rules, ethics and philosophy to the one some players are describing above. It does seem that many of the new attitudes in bridge have taken over all disciplines, industries and even professions, sadly

I would also add that some seem to not know the difference between being a novice/beginner/advanced etc at anything

Finally many seem to think that complexity is superior intellectually and congitively in anything. Many of the best and smartest people in the world at anything prefer simplicity over excessive complexity. Complexity is often usd as a crutch by less able people to undermine players who are better with higher cognitive ability That applies in many fields of endeavour, not just bridge. Its the same with technology in sport. People often mistake having the best equipment as meaning you are the best player. Sometimes the two converge and tend to go together over time but a fair sporting endeavour tests everyone with similar level of equipment and technology A bidding system is a bit like a racing car or a bicycle or other piece of sporting kit. If you are the best player in the club you can win using basic systems and should play at a level your opponents understand and be able to beat them failry, not unfairly And if you only want to play people of the same level of skill or bidding systems find a club where everyone plays the same system.

PS I like the idea of giving a written defence to your opponents in such a situation. Maybe even be good enough to train people in your method and how to defend against it at the club. That would be in the spirit of the game of bridge which is not about misleading people. The game is about perfect information between pairs. Unless the rules have changed in the last 40 years

PPS And some of the issues about the survival of the game. It is the people who put down and humiliate people at low levels who kill things. Those who make things unnecessarily complex. Those who patronise and insult and mock people. Those who mistake complexity and advanced knowledge with ability and intellect. They are the people who kill any discipline, endeavour, sport, game, profession. Any expert worth their salt encourages people with potential and can play at their level as partner or opponent without humiliating them. That is what good experts and teachers do. They do not drive people away from games with complexity and humiliation. And any advanced or expert player who needs to use excessively complex systems to gain an edge over less experienced players is clearly not the advanced/expert player they think they are

PPPS A little personal anecdote. I've been playing for 40 years and would regard myself as a fairly good judge of a hand, decent bidder and average player with fairly basic tools at my disposal. Recently I started to play with someone who had only been playing for 6-12 months, doing classes, piles of tomes on unnecessarily complex bidding systems. For some reason they seemed to think they were the experienced and good player and started trying to teach me how to play. All they are doing is filling their heads like parrots with masses of systems without any broader knoweldge of hand assessment, play etc. Its a bit like GiB tourneys. GiB has been filled with a very complex convention card. Its taken me a year to come to terms with most of them and now be very competitive with some good players (at robot tourneys with tooltips I hasten to add ). That is not because my bridge has imporved in a year but because I have come to terms with the alien systems now. My brain hasnt improved, my bridge knowldege and skills havent imporved. I played better 30-40 years ago when I was young. Its harder now cognitevely because of age. We get our edge through different means

It is interesting what you say. The last thing I wish to do is humiliate or patronise someone through superior intellect or methods. But I do want to enhance my own and my partner's skill of the game by using tools that are available to us. You should never stop learning throughout life, that's my motto.

A small anecdote aside. I have a friend who is a self-taught artist and has painted for many years but didn't have much success selling her art. A few years ago I enquired whether she had any formal training, not knowing her background, or whether she attended art classes. She had not. I said something along the lines of "You love your painting. Why not go along and just have a good time, mixing with people who also love painting too." She took up my suggestion, and thoroughly enjoyed learning about new techniques and made a few new arty friends too. Her work and her understanding of art improved enormously - her words. Now she gets commissions, something that never happened before, and actually makes a pretty penny from her hobby. The point I am making is...

...I do feel many bridge players just look as this game as a hobby or pastime - and there's nothing wrong in that - but it's no good moaning that they never win, and that there are better players who beat them time and time again. We all know that there are players whose skill level will never improve whatever you try to teach them, but we all have it in us to try to improve ourselves in whatever field, be that vocational or recreational, that we have an interest in.

Resenting people, or perhaps on a lesser scale, being slightly jealous of others' success because they have put in the effort to try to better themselves, is a loser's mentality. I myself, many years ago, took bridge lessons, so that my knowledge of the game, even at a hobby/pastime level, was enhanced. I know for a fact that many players in our club have never had a bridge lesson in their life!. I contrast that with my equally-mature art-loving friend (we are both of pensionable age) who was receptive to learn new methods at an advanced age.

[thepossum]

Hi Felicity
Sorry if you thought my post was aimed at you.
The post wasn't at all aimed at you or your attitude to the game, more to some of the responses and common attitudes I have seen and read on this site and tables over the last 12 months

Regards P

PS However reading some of the comments in your post I'm assuming they are not aimed at me. I just believe in fair play, and that the right people are successful for the right reasons. I'm not resenting anyone

I'm watching football at the moment but will reply properly to all your comments when I have time in order to do justice to your response