[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2019-August-11, 16:03, said:

This is nonsense.

It is a hand which ranges from a minimum response to a hand just short of an invititational jump rebid.
Same suit rebid shows a six card in the range between 5-10 HCP
If 4th suit is forcing to game there is often no other way to show such hands.

Same suit rebid by responder is not encouraging, but this is not the same as drop dead.
Drop dead bids tend to occur only if opener has strictly limited his hand like after a notrump bid.

On the actual layout opener can see that 5♦ might have play opposite KTxxxxx in diamonds and little else.
But opener can only evaluate his hand properly if you rebid your six card suit. 2NT will not do and the suit is not good enough for a jump rebid in diamonds.
If there is no fit you want to stop in 2♦.

Rainer Herrmann

It's not nonsense at all, don't assume your system is played by Brits, many people here DO NOT play 4SF FG at the 2 level. 2♦ is about 5-8 to many here, either you bid 3♦ with 9-11 and the suit isn't good enough for that or you bid 4SF and follow with 3♦ if you play it NF (which is what we would do).

Rebidding 2♦ will attract a pass with many non fitting 15-16s where 3N is good, Axxx, Qx, A, AQxxxx for example (how good is that hand opposite ♦KQJxxx and out).

[GrahamJson]

I prefer a1NT rebid, although I agree 2NT is also reasonable. So how about 1C-1D-1S-1NT-2D-4D-5D or 1C-1D-1S-2NT-3D-4D-5D?

[Tramticket]

GrahamJson, on 2019-August-12, 02:01, said:

I prefer a1NT rebid, although I agree 2NT is also reasonable. So how about 1C-1D-1S-1NT-2D-4D-5D or 1C-1D-1S-2NT-3D-4D-5D?

The second of these auctions is interesting. What does the 3♦ bid show?

nekthen, on 2019-August-11, 06:10, said:

3♦ is not forcing and we want to be in game.

Nethken certainly thinks it non-forcing. I tend to agree in Acol, but I can't see that it is particularly usefeul to have a non-forcing 3♦ and maybe it should be forcing?

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-11, 05:10, said:

Isn't 3♥ this hand ?

If 3♦ is non-forcing, Cyberyeti suggests that we should bid 3♥ with this hand. Acol can be very fuzzy about these bids of the fourth suit. I'm not sure that it necessarily shows diamond support, but rather a general force and probably doubt about the heart suit for no trump purposes. This might imply some diamonds, but I don't think this is guaranteed.

[P_Marlowe]

1NT, showing 6-10.

For any upgrading feature you may detect, the weak suit should be enough to
cancel those feature, it is a 6 carder, but that is all.
But obviously 2NT is an alternative.

In a weak NT context I want my 25HCP for being in 3NT.

With Kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Addon Question:

#1 I dont understand the "reverse", a 2S bid instead of 1S is game forcing, which is a bit much facing a mere 6 Count.
A possible follow up after 1NT is 2D, this showes the shape and additional values, and will give you the Chance to get to 5D.
2D gets more interesting, if you regular bid 1H with 44 in the reds, since now it is quite likely that you have 5+ Diamonds,
or 3+ Clubs.

#2 After a 2NT rebid, 3D is again an Option showing the shape, …, it may be a bit murky … but I dont think it makes sense to Play 3D
as NF, you dont have a sure Diamond fit, and playing 4C instead of 2NT ( or 3D in 7 Card trump fit ) Looks a bit questionable.

With Kind regards
Marlowe

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-11, 17:11, said:

It's not nonsense at all, don't assume your system is played by Brits, many people here DO NOT play 4SF FG at the 2 level. 2♦ is about 5-8 to many here, either you bid 3♦ with 9-11 and the suit isn't good enough for that or you bid 4SF and follow with 3♦ if you play it NF (which is what we would do).

Rebidding 2♦ will attract a pass with many non fitting 15-16s where 3N is good, Axxx, Qx, A, AQxxxx for example (how good is that hand opposite ♦KQJxxx and out).

I admit I may miss some 3NT opposite some non fitting 15-16, but this is also true opposite a 1NT rebid.
I would not bid 4th suit whether invitational or not, because it does not matter how you reach 3♦.
It will be in great jeopardy opposite a non fitting minimum unbalanced hand and given the auction such hands are much more likely.
That is why same suit rebid must be wide ranging and opener must raise when he got unexpected support.
The first objective must be to safeguard your plus score while showing your long suit and raising with support is one of the safest actions, no matter how weak responder is.
2♦ will often be your best partial and sometimes your last plus position.

All these suggestions leading to a high level minor suit contract after responder rebids in notrump usually work only in the post mortem.
In my experience they rarely work at the table.

Rainer Herrmann

[P_Marlowe]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-12, 03:27, said:

The second of these auctions is interesting. What does the 3♦ bid show?




Nethken certainly thinks it non-forcing. I tend to agree in Acol, but I can't see that it is particularly usefeul to have a non-forcing 3♦ and maybe it should be forcing?

<snip>

I would also have my doubts, but I dont think such an Agreement particular reasonable, and hopefully I Play with a Partner who is in sync with me.
To a certain Degree this is similar to some FSF auction, when you can construct Hands, that would love to have a natural nonforcing bid of the 4th suit,
or Hands that would love to make a nonforcing bid in 4 of a minor, without even trying to look for a stopper in the 4th suit.
Those Hands exist, but ….

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2019-August-12, 03:48, said:

There are a few non-fitting 15-16 where you will be able to scramble 9 tricks without resorting to diamonds, but they are few and far between.
I would not bid 4th suit whether invitational or not, because it does not matter how you reach 3♦.
It will be in great jeopardy opposite a non fitting minimum unbalanced hand.
That is why same suit rebid must be wide ranging and opener must raise when he got unexpected support.
The first objective must be to safeguard your plus score while showing your long suit.
2♦ will often be your best partial and sometimes your last plus position

Rainer Herrmann

The point with this hand is that your Kx in clubs is massive, and partner might have a LOT more tricks than he thinks, also your diamond suit is bad. I evaluated the hand as 11 anyway (it's worth a bit more when partner bids the blacks) so way too strong for 2♦

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-August-12, 04:28, said:

The point with this hand is that your Kx in clubs is massive, and partner might have a LOT more tricks than he thinks, also your diamond suit is bad. I evaluated the hand as 11 anyway (it's worth a bit more when partner bids the blacks) so way too strong for 2♦

I agree to some extent and have changed my previous comment slightly.
Problem is you put all your eggs in one basket.
That partner is not minimum and that 3NT is your objective.
5♦ is a pipe dream once you bid 2NT

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2019-August-12, 05:28, said:

I agree to some extent and have changed my previous comment slightly.
Problem is you put all your eggs in one basket.
That partner is not minimum and that 3NT is your objective.
5♦ is a pipe dream once you bid 2NT

Rainer Herrmann

Well except that on this hand partner will put you in 5♦ every day of the week

[msjennifer]

SIRS.I ,personally ,partially agree with rhm.Certainly, the 2D bid is a NF bid but in no way is it DROP DEAD.However, I feel there is no need to jump to THREE HEART. A 2H bid may be taken as asking for a heart guard and responder may bid 2NT to show one after which the opener may bid 3D to show his intentions to SUGGEST a 5D contract which the responder will pass with a shabby 6 points.And the same bid of 2H MAY help in finding a MOYSIAN 4S contract if responder on some hand possesses say QJx- of S instead of HK.And over 2S ,opener can bid 3D to suggest interest in playing 5D/4S,by inference showing a singleton unwasted heart.Pardon me, my deductions may not be correct as this sequence is rather unusual.I would like to ask an humble question.How is responder supposed to bid on QJ--762--K98542--K2.? after 1C-P-1D-P-1S--P-?.No need to presume that opponents would have bid hearts.And just by the way, sorry,I do not yet know what exactly is XYZ as I am perhaps only at the PQR stage .

[pescetom]

msjennifer, on 2019-August-12, 09:57, said:

sorry,I do not yet know what exactly is XYZ as I am perhaps only at the PQR stage .

wikipedia cannot do better than "Procedure Qualification Record" for PQR, but it has an adequate description for the excellent XYZ Convention.

[KingCovert]

3♦ is a perfectly fine bid here. You don't want to play in 3NT without a partial stopper at least from partner. You have to have values for your bids, and partner can certainly take a shot at 3NT with something like QX♥. This game will just make a lot of the time when partner has such a heart holding. I think partner has a fairly clear raise of 3♦ to 5♦ as well. Every point in partner's hand is suited towards playing in a trump suit contract. There is no wastage, they should confidently raise 5♦.

I think 2NT is a gross overbid. You'll end up playing 3NT opposite hands with a marginally better heart situation than this one. Your hand has playing strength in diamonds, not NT. Your bidding should reflect this.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2019-August-12, 03:27, said:

If 3♦ is non-forcing, Cyberyeti suggests that we should bid 3♥ with this hand. Acol can be very fuzzy about these bids of the fourth suit. I'm not sure that it necessarily shows diamond support, but rather a general force and probably doubt about the heart suit for no trump purposes. This might imply some diamonds, but I don't think this is guaranteed.

I agree, it gives the message "I have short hearts, one heart stop might not be enough", and now you will get to 5♦ as the weak hand shows extra diamonds and no second stop with 4♦.