Transwomen in bridge
#1
Posted 2019-November-06, 07:41
So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.
Is there a policy on this at world level ? and have various ROs considered it ?
Cricket in the UK allows anybody who identifies as female to play domestically but there are testosterone tests in the international game. I guess that will last until a 6 foot 9 extremely fast bowler turns up in the domestic game.
#6
Posted 2019-November-06, 08:40
Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 07:41, said:
So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the men's game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at women's events.
Based on the way in which you are phrasing the question, my assumption is that your primary purpose in doing so is some combination of
1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day
2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for
Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.
I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.
At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...
You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such
(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)
#7
Posted 2019-November-06, 08:55
But in all seriousness, having worked for the NHS previously, gender identify is difficult to clarify. There's a big difference between simple cross-dressing to full gender reassignment. Most transgender people end up somewhere in between. That doesn't include people who describe themselves as 'non-binary' either. Where would they fit into this?
I expect that bridge, just like cricket, would accept someone who identifies as female at a domestic level until such time as they start winning regularly when probably some bridge authority such as the EBU will have to clarify to what degree that person is transgender.
In medical terms, people who have started regular hormone therapy, and/or have had sex or gender reassignment surgery would automatically be considered transgender from then on.
#8
Posted 2019-November-06, 09:31
FelicityR, on 2019-November-06, 08:55, said:
On this detail, Felicity, I'm sure that the EBU does not intend to involve itself in "clarify[ing] to what degree that person is transgender", as you'll see from the policy I linked above.
#9
Posted 2019-November-06, 10:11
#10
Posted 2019-November-06, 12:48
hrothgar, on 2019-November-06, 08:40, said:
1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day
2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for
Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.
I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.
At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...
You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such
(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)
This seems to me like a curiosity question rather than mocking or some such. I agree that it's an interesting point, I am obviously far from an international player, but it's just clear that women events are far weaker in standard than open events (which let's be honest are 95% + male). this isn't taking anything away from the international women, who to reiterate the point are much better players than me, but if a group of men that were slightly below open team standard decided they were "Transgender" and entered womens trials, it could be a real issue.
#11
Posted 2019-November-06, 13:32
eagles123, on 2019-November-06, 12:48, said:
I agree that this could be a very real issue (however, I suspect that it won't be)
From my own perspective, I think that transwomen should be treated as any other type of woman.
I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.
#12
Posted 2019-November-06, 13:44
eagles123, on 2019-November-06, 12:48, said:
You're right, but see my point above - do WBF or EBU and others officially recognise that overall women are intrinsically weaker at bridge than men?
If not, then should not all events be open, and why do we tolerate male / female / mixed distinctions with an implicit hierarcy?
It's a complex and delicate situation already, without such reticence.
#13
Posted 2019-November-06, 13:54
hrothgar, on 2019-November-06, 13:32, said:
From my own perspective, I think that transwomen should be treated as any other type of woman.
I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.
sure I agree people pretending and genuine cases should be treated differently, but Dave and John with beards etc that rock up to a women's event identifying as women, in the current culture is it really worth questioning it? could easily be looking at a lawsuit etc if you call bullshit on it.
#14
Posted 2019-November-06, 14:09
hrothgar, on 2019-November-06, 08:40, said:
1. Mocking a very real issue that legitimate transgender individuals grapple with every day
2. Attempting to assuage your egos by winning event that you don't legitimately qualify for
Personally, I think that you should be allowed to compete in these events.
I don't think that the EBL should take a position on this topic.
At the same time, I think that bridge players should actively seek to ruin your lives...
You'd be acting like a first rate asshole and should be treated as such
(The best case scenario is that you are deliberately violating the Conditions of Contest in order to improve your chances of winning an event. In my mind this constitutes cheating. I don't think that it would be worth the time / effort to try such as case, however, I think that bridge players should treat you as cheats. If, instead, your purpose is to further marginalize and mock a group of people who already deal with intense social stigma... Well I consider this far far worse than cheating a card game. I know how the company that I currently work for as well as the one I left a few years back deal with these sorts of issues)
No I was not mocking it, in the UK we have one good but not quite absolutely top flight male player to whom this could apply. I don't know how he identifies, but he has turned up at tournaments in dresses with painted nails and make up for years.
I was suggesting that if we identified as female this was a real documented thing (and it's not going to happen), not that I turned up in a beard and a dress.
#15
Posted 2019-November-06, 14:13
Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 07:41, said:
Sigh, not this nonsense again, please.
Maybe you just don't know anything about this issue. And that's ok since gender dysphoria is probably not among the top-1000 most interesting medical topics. If I weren't TS myself I probably wouldn't be bothered to aquire knowledge about it either.
But then please don't make this kind of mock attacks. It is genuinely hurtful.
You are not seriously suggesting that there are men who would take pride in having won a women's event. I don't buy that.
There are lots of hypothetical situations which the laws don't deal with. Some of them are just too stupid to be worth discussing.
If it's about genuine transwomen, as opposed to men pretending to be transwomen, you can just read the document PeterAlan linked to. I am not sure why anyone would want to know, though. Unless you are asking on hehalf of a TG friend who is seeking personal advice, of course.
#16
Posted 2019-November-06, 14:14
Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 14:09, said:
I would see absolutely nothing wrong with this individual choosing to compete in a woman's event
Quote
Here, once again, I would see absolutely nothing wrong with this
#17
Posted 2019-November-06, 14:30
helene_t, on 2019-November-06, 14:13, said:
Maybe you just don't know anything about this issue. And that's ok since gender dysphoria is probably not among the top-1000 most interesting medical topics. If I weren't TS myself I probably wouldn't be bothered to aquire knowledge about it either.
But then please don't make this kind of mock attacks. It is genuinely hurtful.
You are not seriously suggesting that there are men who would take pride in having won a women's event. I don't buy that.
There are lots of hypothetical situations which the laws don't deal with. Some of them are just too stupid to be worth discussing.
Err, what mock attack, this is not a such a serious issue in bridge, but is a massive issue in other circumstances where this could be worth tens of millions or could get somebody killed (how would you feel about having a hard ball projected at your head 25mph faster than any other woman can). I have some experience through a friend with somebody who doesn't have gender dysphoria, but is gender fluid and on a given day might identify as male, female or agender.
It has happened before. There was an American female runner years ago pre drug testing that they only found was male when she died.
#18
Posted 2019-November-06, 16:12
eagles123, on 2019-November-06, 13:54, said:
I suppose there might be some folks willing to sue even if they expected to lose. But then I don't have much "faith in humanity".
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#19
Posted 2019-November-07, 04:19
FelicityR, on 2019-November-06, 08:55, said:
Yes, because women dont drink beer. The only ladylike form of drinking is sipping slowly on a small glass of sherry.
#20
Posted 2019-November-07, 09:17
helene_t, on 2019-November-06, 14:13, said:
I don't know whether they were or weren't, but I'm not so sure there _aren't_ people who would do bizarre things to win. I'll grant that it's an order of magnitude different, but there are people who go to great lengths to cheat on free, non-League'd tournaments on BBO. And all they get for their success there is a little number next to their name on a free bridge site. Hardly the acclaim one would think incite someone to underhanded conduct.
I agree that it's an absurd idea that someone would take pride in that... but, I'm not sure there aren't people who would.
Quote
FWIW, I think it's interesting both because of the interesting implications of gender divisions in bridge and because of the odd blend of people who play our game - making it both highly progressive on one hand and oddly conservative on another. But, I understand how that could be seen as poking an sensitive issue with a sharp stick under the guise of 'curiosity'.