[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2020-April-11, 07:58, said:

Why does responding 2♦ promise at least five but 2♣ only needs four? What is the advantage?

Living in predominantly Acol country, I have never heard of this style of bidding before. Everyone I know responds 2 minor on four or more, and 2♥ promises at least five.

In general, the maximum suit shows extra length, because there are highly likely to be reasonable intermediate bids. Thus 1♣ - 1♦ ; 2♣ shows 6+ 100%. 1♣- 1♠ ; 2♣. is usually 6+ but nowhere near 100%.

1♠ - 2♥ is 5+ 100%. 1♠ - 2♣ is not.

Maybe the 2/1 people play 2♣. to a major is an artificial game force, although they won't say so.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-April-11, 11:02, said:

Pretty common here to play SJS with either a single suited rock crusher OR a GF 5+ suit and 4+ trumps. This hand is very borderline for most peoples' version, and not suitable for ours, make the diamonds Qxxx, and we'd jump shift.

I was thinking of East jump shifting in diamonds opposite West's 1♥ opener, assuming a 5 card major system, but if a jump shift promises four card support in opener's major, that isn't an option.

[AL78]

bluenikki, on 2020-April-11, 13:33, said:

In general, the maximum suit shows extra length, because there are highly likely to be reasonable intermediate bids. Thus 1♣ - 1♦ ; 2♣ shows 6+ 100%. 1♣- 1♠ ; 2♣. is usually 6+ but nowhere near 100%.

1♠ - 2♥ is 5+ 100%. 1♠ - 2♣ is not.

Maybe the 2/1 people play 2♣. to a major is an artificial game force, although they won't say so.

I am familiar with opener rebidding a suit shows six if opener had other bids available with a five card suit. The auction I questioned wasn't the same, it was a response to an opening bid, but I have now had a very good explanation of why, it is down to system differences. I have no experience of 2 over 1 or forcing 1NT.

[miamijd]

mikeh, on 2020-April-11, 09:52, said:

I mentioned I was assuming 2/1, which is a clue that I was not discussing precision, acol, blue team, schenken, Culbertson etc😊

It is close to universal in expert 2/1 for 2D to promise 5 cards in the suit, with 2C becoming pretty much a catch-all response on 3343 hands, or indeed 3442 hands over a 1S response. You won’t likely see this in bidding texts, since expert practice evolves faster than do bidding books, and bidding books are not written for experts in any event (with rare exceptions).

With your example hand, east responds 2C.

Indeed he would do so with QJx KJx AKQx xxx

The idea is that one adds definition to sequence that begin 1M 2R, at the cost of increased ambiguity in those auctions that begin 1M 2C.

.....

In this vein, I like to play a 2nt response to 1M as a balanced game force with 2-3 card support. You can use 2s over 1h and 3c over 1s as your 4 card GF raise. Gitelman has advocated this for some time.

This way, 2x over 1M always shows a five card or better suit, with the rare exception of. 1444 over 1s, where you must bid 2c with only 4. Makes bidding minor slams much easier and doesn’t give up much at all. The trouble with 2c semi-artificial (which is what I end up playing with most partners) is that finding club games and slams becomes very tough.

[elm75015]

The way I would do it with my partner is E opening 1NT
then 2D and 2H where I bid 2NT which is forcing asking for the 1st minor at least with 4 cards => 3D then 4D for the fit, 4H for 3 cards, 4S with a control &c. to end up to 7D !

[bluenikki]

mikeh, on 2020-April-10, 21:46, said:

Easy enough if west deals. He has a 1H opening bid to which east responds 2D. In the current expert usage, virtually universal, this shows 5+. I am assuming 2/1

West raises to 3D and east shows his heart fit with 3H

West now hauls out exclusion via 5C. Not every expert plays this, but my preference is that when two suits have been bid and raised, one shows keycards in both suits.

It is common in exclusion to play 0314 responses so 5C fetches 5D, over which 5S asks for queens. 5N would be none, 5D the diamond queen, 5H the heart queen and higher bids both queens (5S would show the spade king as well)

Now west bids a confident 7 D.


With east dealer, it is far more difficult to avoid hearts

East opens 1N and now even small slam is not easy. After all, picture east with, say, KJxx xx AQx KQxx. Even 4H could fail!

West might even just use Texas, and they play 4H

Even if west bids 2D then jumps to 4H to show a mild slam try (assuming Texas), east has a minimum with no black suit controls

About the onl6 way I can see goin* to slam is if west splinters over 2H, which is far from clear. If he does, east has a huge hand in context and should drive to 6H. I see no way of finding diamonds.

On your auction with west dealer:

Does the 3♥ bid promise even one honor?

More generally, how can west be sure that the 5-level is safe?

And how does west know the ♦ king is opposite?

[mikeh]

miamijd, on 2020-April-11, 23:13, said:

In this vein, I like to play a 2nt response to 1M as a balanced game force with 2-3 card support. You can use 2s over 1h and 3c over 1s as your 4 card GF raise. Gitelman has advocated this for some time.

This way, 2x over 1M always shows a five card or better suit, with the rare exception of. 1444 over 1s, where you must bid 2c with only 4. Makes bidding minor slams much easier and doesn’t give up much at all. The trouble with 2c semi-artificial (which is what I end up playing with most partners) is that finding club games and slams becomes very tough.

I do play 2S as the J2N raise in hearts, as do I think many expert partnerships (and many advanced as well). However, I won't bid a natural 2N with a wide open side suit, so xxx Kx AQxx AJxx would not find me bidding 2N.

[mikeh]

bluenikki, on 2020-April-12, 16:10, said:

On your auction with west dealer:

Does the 3♥ bid promise even one honor?

More generally, how can west be sure that the 5-level is safe?

And how does west know the ♦ king is opposite?

No, 3H doesn't promise an honour, but is shows real support, so xxx would be possible but disappointing. Meanwhile the west hand has become huge: we have two fits of at least 9 cards, and we have first round control in both blacks.

Now, if 5C is too rich for your blood, try 3S. Responder will bid 4D, denying as much as the club king or stiff but promising more than a horrible hand (which in any event would have bid 4H over 3D, if one plays fast arrival that way). So even the most pessimistic west would drive to slam via ordinary keycard....there is no need for exclusion once east denies the club Ace, so there can be no confusion.

[MinorKid]

Guys thanks for reply.

West opens:
I see many of you go for 7♦

1♥ 2♦
3♦ 3♥
...
Cue_Bid+RCKBW OR Excl 6-card RKCBW

1♥ 3♦
4♦ 4♥
...
Cue_Bid+RCKBW OR Excl 6-card RKCBW

1♥ 3♦ <- Specific Strong Rock crusher Jump Shift
Specific splinter

Had west opened I would had go with my partner for
1♥ 2♦
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
5♣ 6♦/7♦


4H is cue bid primary for aces, but K in partner suit is valuable as an ace.

1♥ 2♦
2♥ 4♥
West overcome little hurdle to bid 5♣ and things still go smooth ..

If East opens 1♦:
---- 1♦
1♥ 2♦
3♣ 3♥
Cue_Bid+RCKBW OR Excl 6-card RKCBW

---- 1♦
1♥ 2♦
Cue_Bid+RCKBW OR Excl 6-card RKCBW

If East opens 1NT:
---- 1NT
2♦ 2♥
3♦ 4♦
Cue_Bid ...

---- 1NT
2♦ 2♥
Splinter (What?!)

Some pairs West may end in game after transfer showing very mild slam interest.
---- 1NT
2♦ 2♥
4♥

We actually went
The bidding I came across with a non-regular partner:
W - E
---- 1♦
1♥ 2♦
3♣ 3♥
4♦

I was sitting East and paused here, thinking of meaning of 3♣ and 4♦. I knew 3♣ was intended to be NMF but 4♦ ... he could have real clubs but spade stopper for 3NT and play 4/5♦ as last resort; or he is interested in slam, set the strain and asking me to cue-bid.

If 4♦ was an alternative to 3NT, I can suggest 4♥ as a alternative to ♦ assumed that he has 5 carder for NMF. Alternatively i can choose 5♦ given my 16 count, even-through 4♦ might not be an invitation at all. (I hate ending up in 4 of a minor, rather i almost-always tell partner using it to express slam interest in seemly game forcing situations.)

If on the other hand he is interested in slam, i still have the 4♥/5♦ dilemma. East hand is quite in poor shape for slam contract. Discounting the SQ it is the minimum which justify 5♦, with a very decent suit. On the other hand cue-bidding the HK seems reasonable, since a King in partner's suit is as valuable as an ace (or else why we have six card RKCB). Last but not least, if East see things other way around, agree playing in hearts but West showed diamond control (?!), no club and spade control, then it is only sensible ending the auction in 4♥!

---- 4♥
4♠

A pause on west, from his prospective he though of a PASS, but the suit bid previously encouraged him to carry on bidding. Only thing in his concern was trump quality on diamonds. But, can't launch 5NT for two reasons: missing three honors instead of two, and East's 4♥ bid screwed up his plan: he thought I thought we are in hearts! His best shot is to hand over his captaincy with a cheapest cue.

---- 5♦

Another pause on me, we have agreed if we stopped/jumped in 5 of agreed Major suit but a suit has not sorted out (concern suit, usually a suit haven't been control-bid or the opponent suit) then we use a gadget to deal with the missing suit and to decide 6 or 7 by both of us. I wondered if it works on 5 of agreed minor suit as well. I did not bother it and bid 5♦ hoping to stop the heart madness.

5NT
West bid smth on 5♦ so he must have club control, first round. But at this point he dont bother with 2 or 3 missing trump honor. East might have more than 5 diamond cards and still raise hearts. He tell East to go ahead with 2

---- 7♦

As u can see on the table we have the grand slam, but later the director ruled out the score to barely a mixture of 4♥+2 and 6♦+1 due to out of tempo.

[nullve]

System geeks only:

Spoiler

MinorKid, on 2020-April-10, 20:38, said:

---

All Vul.

How do you fly into the right slam starting from W or E respectively?

nullve(W)-nullve(E):

1♥(1)-2♣(2)
2♥(3)-2♠(4)
3♣(5)-3♦(6)
4♣(7)-4♥(8)
4♠(9)-5♣(10)
5♦(11)-5♥(12)
5N(13)-7♦(14)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
(2) "NAT, quasi-BAL or SUPP"
(3) "10-12" (or, rather, meets the rule of 19 but not the rule of 22), to play* opposite a 3c limit raise
(4) GF relay
(5) usually 4+ D but never 5H5D2-C
(6) relay
(7) 3640 (so 9-11 (non-walrus) hcp)
(8) key card ask agreeing D
(9) even number of key cards
(10) HK ask (not pointless!)
(11) no HK
(12) HQ ask (made possible by the HK ask)
(13) HQ, no HJ
(14) contract

* the scary part (but maybe not so scary if opps seem to know how to balance)

nullve(E)-nullve(W):

(first "real" test of a sick NT system I came up with a few weeks ago where some shapes are shown "modulo 6".)

1N(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-4♣(4)
4♠(5)-4N(6)
5♣(7)-5♥(8)
7♦(9)-P

(1) "14-16 BAL"
(2) Stayman-esque
(3) no major
(4) 11-13 (non-walrus) hcp, 3046 ~ 3640
(5) key card ask in Responder's middlemost non-void suit (so in D/H if Responder has 3046/3640, respectively)
(6) even number of key cards
(7) trump Q ask
(8) trump Q, no K in longest non-void suit outside trumps
(9) contract

[MinorKid]

I tried the bidding in my Q plus software and it went like
Without what sort of fancy expect agreements

East Opens Strong NT
---- 1N
2♦ 2♥
4♣** 4♦*
4♠* 5♥
PASS

* control bids
** splinter

West Opens
1♥ 2♦ : 2♦ 2/1 sys min 3 cards expect 4.5 cards 11+ points
2♥ 3♥ : 2♥ min 5 cards expect 5.5 cards 12-17 points 3♥ 15+ points
3♠* 4♦* : cues ♠A ; ♦A no ♣A
4NT~ 5♥~ : RKCB ; 2 wo the Q
6♥

Say you dont garbage 2♥ on this hand
1♥ 2♦
3♦ 5♦
6♦


I guess it is where non-regular partner gets without fancy gadgets.

Reply to AL78 post:

Yes Q-plus software suggest
1♥-3NT for Q85 K5 AKQ3 J432
1♥-2♦ for KQJ K5 AKQ3 J432

Naturally you can response with four card ♦ to 1M, in rare cases three as well. But opener is expected to see 4.5 cards in average. It assumes Jacoby 2NT, Forcing 1NT is applied in current system.

I am wondering how to use six-key card blackwood, many say when you show 1. double fit OR 2. when a long suit is shown opposite balanced hands and second fit is found. I guess 1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣*-3♥-4♦ applies as well isn't it? After you asked for Aces and King how do you ask for the specific key Queen but not the other ?

[MinorKid]

nullve, on 2020-April-14, 18:01, said:

System geeks only:

Spoiler

nullve(W)-nullve(E):

1♥(1)-2♣(2)
2♥(3)-2♠(4)
3♣(5)-3♦(6)
4♣(7)-4♥(8)
4♠(9)-5♣(10)
5♦(11)-5♥(12)
5N(13)-7♦(14)
P

(1) "10-21, 5+ H, unBAL"
(2) "NAT, quasi-BAL or SUPP"
(3) "10-12" (or, rather, meets the rule of 19 but not the rule of 22), to play* opposite a 3c limit raise
(4) GF relay
(5) usually 4+ D but never 5H5D2-C
(6) relay
(7) 3640 (so 9-11 (non-walrus) hcp)
(8) key card ask agreeing D
(9) even number of key cards
(10) HK ask (not pointless!)
(11) no HK
(12) HQ ask (made possible by the HK ask)
(13) HQ, no HJ
(14) contract

* the scary part (but maybe not so scary if opps seem to know how to balance)

nullve(E)-nullve(W):

(first "real" test of a sick NT system I came up with a few weeks ago where some shapes are shown "modulo 6".)

1N(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-4♣(4)
4♠(5)-4N(6)
5♣(7)-5♥(8)
7♦(9)-P

(1) "14-16 BAL"
(2) Stayman-esque
(3) no major
(4) 11-13 (non-walrus) hcp, 3046 ~ 3640
(5) key card ask in Responder's middlemost non-void suit (so in D/H if Responder has 3046/3640, respectively)
(6) even number of key cards
(7) trump Q ask
(8) trump Q, no K in longest non-void suit outside trumps
(9) contract

It looks like the travel ban is over and you are going to pack everything in your house in a suitcase for a long trip. Where are you going to stay when things goes wrong?