[dkham]

We were playing cross-IMPs in a good standard field. In the hand below East-West were given an easy ride and allowed to play 2♠. If North-South push to 3♣ they get a good score (either making, or defeating 3♠).

Should South have ventured 3♣ over 2♠? (that's the only way we have to show this sort of hand)
Should North have made a takeout double of 2♠?
Or maybe you think the result is fine.

I'm interested in what the consensus is here.

Board 1

[LBengtsson]

East will always bid 3♠. I do not know why he did not bid 3♠ to his partner 1♠ bid???

[Cyberyeti]

LBengtsson, on 2020-December-27, 10:02, said:

East will always bid 3♠. I do not know why he did not bid 3♠ to his partner 1♠ bid???

I think I would bid 2♦ but agree 2♠ is a bit limp, yes they will pretty much always bid 3♠ if you bid 3♣, but they haven't made it yet, requires a good guess that N has ♥AK but not the J.

Whether you can double over the N hand depends on your agreements as to whether it shows extras (or how many).

[nige1]

dkham 'We were playing cross-IMPs in a good standard field. In the hand below East-West were given an easy ride and allowed to play 2♠. If North-South push to 3♣ they get a good score (either making, or defeating 3♠). Should South have ventured 3♣ over 2♠? (that's the only way we have to show this sort of hand)Should North have made a takeout double of 2♠?Or maybe you think the result is fine. I'm interested in what the consensus is here.'
++++++++++++++++++++++
IMO, North should protect with a double; belatedly, East will bid 3♠, which is a double dummy make and will probably make in practice.

---

[smerriman]

What do you play an immediate 2♣ as by South (given "standard" would be denying values having not redoubled)? It might be harder for the opponents to find 3♠ if West passes and North competes to 3♣.

[steve2005]

I like North doubling 1♠.

[TylerE]

X of 1♠ by N.

[mikeh]

I think those who suggest North double 1S are resulting.

Double would not be the worst call I’ve seen, but not exactly clear.

East made an astounding underbid with 2S. Given the auction, the diamond King is very likely onside, so that east’s hand is essentially a 20 count, plus he even has a ruffing value in clubs.

Also, if North does double, the play in 3S is pretty simple, whether North gives south a heart ruff or not. West would need to be deaf not to play North for the heart AK.

As for south, bidding 3C over the double is, imo, very poor. I don’t like weak jumpshifts to the 3-level but, if you’re going to make that sort of call, I’d advise a 7 card suit.

Doubling 2S is slightly more attractive than is doubling 1S since east has underbid by an Ace, and west has denied a decent 6 count, but its all irrelevant since east will bid 3S and the only way it can fail is if North leads a low heart from AKxx🥴

[PhilG007]

dkham, on 2020-December-27, 04:16, said:

We were playing cross-IMPs in a good standard field. In the hand below East-West were given an easy ride and allowed to play 2♠. If North-South push to 3♣ they get a good score (either making, or defeating 3♠).

Should South have ventured 3♣ over 2♠? (that's the only way we have to show this sort of hand)
Should North have made a takeout double of 2♠?
Or maybe you think the result is fine.

I'm interested in what the consensus is here.

Board 1

I don't agree with East's takeout double He has an above average hand with a double stop in the enemy suit
a perfect 1NT overcall.. South was correct to pass. This is the kind of hand where you only bid when compelled to.

North can make a takeout double over 2♠ but its borderline The OP doesn't give the vulnerability which could
(as it so often does) affect the tactics. West's bid of 2 Spades with only 2 points is sailing close to the wind despite having good support..
Bridge history is littered with deals where a player has chanced his arm and "bid one more" and lived to regret it.
Its all very well to take a gamble as long as you're prepared to take the consequences of your actions

[Cyberyeti]

PhilG007, on 2020-December-28, 07:50, said:

I don't agree with East's takeout double He has an above average hand with a double stop in the enemy suit
a perfect 1NT overcall.. South was correct to pass. This is the kind of hand where you only bid when compelled to.

North can make a takeout double over 2♠ but its borderline The OP doesn't give the vulnerability which could
(as it so often does) affect the tactics. West's bid of 2 Spades with only 2 points is sailing close to the wind despite having good support..
Bridge history is littered with deals where a player has chanced his arm and "bid one more" and lived to regret it.
Its all very well to take a gamble as long as you're prepared to take the consequences of your actions

What planet are you on, he has a 19 count, and is way too good to overcall 1N which is 15-17 for most.

W bid 1♠ in response to the take out double as he was forced to, E bid 2♠.

[paulg]

PhilG007, on 2020-December-28, 07:50, said:

I don't agree with East's takeout double He has an above average hand with a double stop in the enemy suit
a perfect 1NT overcall.

Aside from having too many points for a standard one no trump overcall, this is a quite a good nineteen count so I think double, followed by a no trump rebid, is the better plan.

[AL78]

mikeh, on 2020-December-28, 02:54, said:

Doubling 2S is slightly more attractive than is doubling 1S since east has underbid by an Ace, and west has denied a decent 6 count, but its all irrelevant since east will bid 3S and the only way it can fail is if North leads a low heart from AKxx🥴

How does 3♠ fail on a low heart lead? If declarer guesses right, he has five spades, ♥Q, two diamonds via a finesse and one club, nine tricks. I can't see how the defence get five tricks even if declarer doesn't put the queen up at trick one. The defence get three heart tricks, but then declarer has the same nine tricks available. If the defence don't take their ♥AK at tricks two and three, all declarer has to do is win the return, draw trumps and force the ♥AK out for the ninth trick

I would have doubled 2♠ in the passout seat. It might not make a difference here when East bids 3♠ but I don't like letting the opps play at a low level when they have found a fit and I have a good hand with shortage in their suit. It is extremely likely we have a fit in one of the other suits, the only way we don't is if we have three seven card fits or the opponents have found a 4-3 fit.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2020-December-28, 09:21, said:

How does 3♠ fail on a low heart lead? If declarer guesses right, he has five spades, ♥Q, two diamonds via a finesse and one club, nine tricks. I can't see how the defence get five tricks even if declarer doesn't put the queen up at trick one. The defence get three heart tricks, but then declarer has the same nine tricks available. If the defence don't take their ♥AK at tricks two and three, all declarer has to do is win the return, draw trumps and force the ♥AK out for the ninth trick

I would have doubled 2♠ in the passout seat. It might not make a difference here when East bids 3♠ but I don't like letting the opps play at a low level when they have found a fit and I have a good hand with shortage in their suit. It is extremely likely we have a fit in one of the other suits, the only way we don't is if we have three seven card fits or the opponents have found a 4-3 fit.

Of course. When the lead is low and you have 1098 in hand and Qxxx in dummy, and the opps have 19 hcp between them, every bridge player who knows anything about the game is playing the Queen:)

Back to the real world, nobody under leads AKxx on this auction. For one thing, dummy might have QJxx and declarer 10x.

I was pointing out that 3S is cold unless North did something at trick 1 that makes zero sense.

[smerriman]

AL78, on 2020-December-28, 09:21, said:

I can't see how the defence get five tricks even if declarer doesn't put the queen up at trick one. The defence get three heart tricks, but then declarer has the same nine tricks available. If the defence don't take their ♥AK at tricks two and three, all declarer has to do is win the return, draw trumps and force the ♥AK out for the ninth trick

The defense wins the first 3 heart tricks with J, K, and A, then the fourth heart is ruffed (and overruffed by declarer). Declarer still has a club and diamond loser.

[PhilG007]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-December-28, 08:14, said:

What planet are you on, he has a 19 count, and is way too good to overcall 1N which is 15-17 for most.

W bid 1♠ in response to the take out double as he was forced to, E bid 2♠.

A 1NT overcall is not just confined to a set limit of 15-17.. It can mean any pointage from 15 + The important thing here is to show the shape and the
guards in the opponents suit. A 1NT overcall gives a clearer indication of this than a takeout double does.. Yes East has a 19 count but if partner has a
'bust' he still only has a 19 count(!) It's not yet time to get excited.(!)

[Cyberyeti]

PhilG007, on 2020-December-28, 14:55, said:

A 1NT overcall is not just confined to a set limit of 15-17.. It can mean any pointage from 15 + The important thing here is to show the shape and the
guards in the opponents suit. A 1NT overcall gives a clearer indication of this than a takeout double does.. Yes East has a 19 count but if partner has a
'bust' he still only has a 19 count(!) It's not yet time to get excited.(!)

In your world maybe, among people who know anything about bridge, it's a set range, 15-17 or bad 18 is common and double with a 1N rebid shows the next range up. I have played a wider range than that and it works pretty well, but that was when I was playing a wide range NT opener also and we had the system to deal with it.

You want partner to bid game with a fair 6 or a bad 7 that he may well not even invite on if you overcall 1N (and you'll be glad of that when you had a minimum)

[johnu]

PhilG007, on 2020-December-28, 14:55, said:

A 1NT overcall is not just confined to a set limit of 15-17.. It can mean any pointage from 15 + The important thing here is to show the shape and the
guards in the opponents suit. A 1NT overcall gives a clearer indication of this than a takeout double does.. Yes East has a 19 count but if partner has a
'bust' he still only has a 19 count(!) It's not yet time to get excited.(!)

Correct, the time to get excited is after partner passes your 19 HCP 1NT with a 7 or 8 count and you miss a laydown game.

[AL78]

smerriman, on 2020-December-28, 13:17, said:

The defense wins the first 3 heart tricks with J, K, and A, then the fourth heart is ruffed (and overruffed by declarer). Declarer still has a club and diamond loser.

Ah yes, the fourth round of hearts destroys the discard of a loser, didn't spot that.

[dkham]

Thanks for the replies.

To finish the story, 2♠ made +2. This lost us 2.29 IMPs, as declarer made 10 tricks and some only made 9.
On this deal, pushing them to 3♠ doesn't help much.

[cherdano]

I think
- North could double 1♠,
- North should double 2♠,
- South is too weak to bid 2♣ or 3♣ in the actual auction, and
- you lost IMPs on the board partly because of East's underbid - even 3♠ would not be enough for many partnerships, so some might get to 4♠.

I wouldn't worry about the bidding. I would, however, worry about the defense, as you let declarer make an unnecessary overtrick. What went wrong depends on your carding agreements.