[Winstonm]

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What do you do now?

[nige1]

Winstonm 'What do you do now?'
+++++++++++++++++++
I rank:
1. Double = Extras.
2. 3♦ = Exaggerates trump support.
3. Pass = Underbid.
4. 3♥ = Overbid.
5. 3♣ = Distortion.
6. 2N = Ditto.

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[Cyberyeti]

Does whether partner would bid 1♠ or 2♦ with a 3343 have any relevance here ?

[Winstonm]

This hand was presented in a bidding contest and all you know is that vanilla 2/1 is the imposed system. Presented by Richard Pavlicek a long time ago, but in the BB it was bid by Bobby Levin.

[helene_t]

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-July-06, 15:13, said:

Does whether partner would bid 1♠ or 2♦ with a 3343 have any relevance here ?

Absolutely. I don't want partner to play in a 3-3 fit. I suppose I could correct to 3c but I'm not that strong.
I pass. I don't think a second double leads to anything good.

[nullve]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-06, 12:02, said:

What do you do now?

It may depend on the system, e.g. on how I show approximately this many hcp and a balanced hand, whether 2♦ promises 5+ D and whether we play Good/Bad.

[cherdano]

I think this is an easy double no matter which system, form of scoring, state of the match or psychedelic influences I might be under.
We have an A and a Q more than we promised. Game is easily possible.

[Winstonm]

Bobby Levin in the 1981 Bermuda Bowl bid 3D, yet they still missed 3NT when his partner had Qxxxxx in diamonds and A10x in hearts.

I like Levin’s bid because it gives partner more information while showing similar strength as double.

[Winstonm]

 nullve, on 2021-July-07, 07:03, said:

It may depend on the system, e.g. on how I show approximately this many hcp and a balanced hand, whether 2♦ promises 5+ D and whether we play Good/Bad.

Vanilla 2/1 in the bidding contest.

[LBengtsson]

the worst that may happen if we X again is that we end in 3♦ and go for -2. the chance of that being 3♦X-2 is less than 5% imo. east is weak weak. if west is trap passing with a good hand and north has nothing then I still think they will bid 3♥ here other than X 3♦ bid by us. south is in balance seat with extra values: X again is only way to show this. passing may be best as helene_t indicates if partner is terrible 3343 shape, but 3352 shape is 15.5% and 3343 is 10.5% so I take chance here.

[Winstonm]

 helene_t, on 2021-July-07, 05:55, said:

Absolutely. I don't want partner to play in a 3-3 fit. I suppose I could correct to 3c but I'm not that strong.
I pass. I don't think a second double leads to anything good.

The basis of this bidding contest was to gauge judgment. With an Ace more than advertised, pass seems awfully conservative.

[Winstonm]

 LBengtsson, on 2021-July-07, 07:52, said:

the worst that may happen if we X again is that we end in 3♦ and go for -2. the chance of that being 3♦X-2 is less than 5% imo. east is weak weak. if west is trap passing with a good hand and north has nothing then I still think they will bid 3♥ here other than X 3♦ bid by us. south is in balance seat with extra values: X again is only way to show this. passing may be best as helene_t indicates if partner is terrible 3343 shape, but 3352 shape is 15.5% and 3343 is 10.5% so I take chance here.

How likely is it that partner will convert the second double to penalty? Not very at imps . So why not bid 3D instead of forcing your partner to bid 3D?

[DavidKok]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-07, 08:02, said:

How likely is it that partner will convert the second double to penalty? Not very at imps . So why not bid 3D instead of forcing your partner to bid 3D?

Maybe partner would like to bid something other than 3D? Either way a voluntary raise to the 3-level typically shows 4-card support, double paints a more accurate picture of our cards even if the final contract may well end up the same.

[nullve]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-07, 07:54, said:

With an Ace more than advertised

... and Good/Bad not available in response to my double I'm going to bid 2N (16-18 BAL-ish?) now.

[Winstonm]

 DavidKok, on 2021-July-07, 08:12, said:

Maybe partner would like to bid something other than 3D? Either way a voluntary raise to the 3-level typically shows 4-card support, double paints a more accurate picture of our cards even if the final contract may well end up the same.

Yes, a voluntary raise normally shows 4 - else this would not have been a bidding problem. It really gets down to 2 questions: should this hand bid again? If so, is 3D or double better?

Here is what Richard Pavlicek said as moderator:

Quote

Keep it simple, and I agree. The consensus to raise partner's suit is the practical way to show extra values. The lack of a fourth trump is a concern, but the enemy raise increases the chance that partner has 5+ cards. Further, A-K-9 is strong enough for Moysian appeal. If partner has some disgusting hand like x-x-x, x-x-x, J-x-x-x, x-x-x, it's just too bad.

A second double seems like the normal approach, conveying the strength about right; but partner will expect four spades. Hence, his most likely action will be to bid a three-card spade suit, which will solve nothing. If you then correct to 3D , he will expect you to have even greater strength.

PS: In the original poll, I doubled with this hand and so did Justin Lall, so I felt I was in great company. I miss Justin.

[Winstonm]

 nullve, on 2021-July-07, 09:34, said:

... and Good/Bad not available in response to my double I'm going to bid 2N (16-18 BAL-ish?) now.

2N would be considered by most I think to be 18-19. Seems an overbid to me.

[Winstonm]

 nige1, on 2021-July-06, 14:53, said:

Winstonm 'What do you do now?'
+++++++++++++++++++
I rank:
1. Double = Extras.
2. 3♦ = Exaggerates trump support.
3. Pass = Underbid.
4. 3♥ = Overbid.
5. 3♣ = Distortion.
6. 2N = Ditto.

---

Nige, you may be interested that Richard Pavlichek reversed your scoring, awarding 3D the top score and double the second highest. Voting was 3D: 546 votes Score 10, Double 362 votes Score 8, Pass 288 votes, Score 6, 3C 139 votes, Score 5

[nullve]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-07, 09:39, said:

2N would be considered by most I think to be 18-19.

Even if

(1♥)-P-(P)-1N = 11-15 (or so, but definitely not 15-17!)

?

[Cyberyeti]

 Winstonm, on 2021-July-07, 09:39, said:

2N would be considered by most I think to be 18-19. Seems an overbid to me.

1x-P-P-2N most people play as something like that, x then 1N is a second seat 1N overcall because the 4th seat one is 11-14

[Winstonm]

 nullve, on 2021-July-07, 10:16, said:

Even if

(1♥)-P-(P)-1N = 11-15 (or so, but definitely not 15-17!)

?

I forgot this was originally a pass out seat double and was thinking it was direct seat. Duh