[dickiegera]

penalty or take out?

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Penalty or take out?

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I play that if they open 4 ♠ double is penalty and 4NT is take out [2 suits]

and if they open 4 ♥ double is take out but I don't know what to do when they overcall 4 of a major

HELP thank you

[mikeh]

For me, all doubles by opener in these situations are takeout oriented, but as the level increases they become more ‘cards’ than perfect takeout doubles.

So 1D (4S) P (P) x. Is more about saying ‘I think we own this hand’ than it is about ‘whatever you do, don’t pass without a trump stack’

Often responder will pass with a weak hand and no spade trick….because double suggests a good chance of 4 tricks on defence while taking 11 on offence rates to be very difficult indeed….say I’m looking at xxx Jxxx xx xxxx. Partner could have reopened with 4N or 5C or 5D with a freakishly distributional good hand so the double suggests shortness in spades but not a wild shape. x AQxx AKxxx KJx would double. Void AKxxx AQJxxx xx should reopen with 4N, showing two suits and intending to pull 5C to 5D to show the hearts (these hands offered as examples)

I might well be going for 800 if I bid on that first example so even if they make, I’m better off passing.

Preempts work. That’s why they’re so popular. Accepting the occasional -590 is a cost of doing business.

Also, holding a pure penalty double in front of the preemptor is, in my experience, less common than is holding a strong hand with relatively normal distribution.

[apollo1201]

Couldn’t phrase it better than Mikeh!

In short, X says it is our hand, bid if you think you can make 11 tricks (given what you can infer from my hand), otherwise it should go down often enough and you can safely pass.

Maybe wild distributions with weak hands should consider taking it out as well, sth like xx Jxxxxx xx Qxx, partner’s H tricks will get ruffed and saving at 5H could be less expensive. And sometimes it makes ;-)

Of course, 4SX is more often left in than 4HX, as the easier 4S contract is still in the loop. But with Jxxx Qxx xx Kxxx, I’m leaving 4HX.

[mycroft]

I agree completely with MikeH.

Question: what does the level of negative doubles matter here? Through 3♠, 4♥ (does anyone do this?), 4♠, 7♥? Does the lack of a double of 4♥ (whatever its meaning) imply anything useful, or different from the 4♠ auction?

[mikeh]

In one partnership we play negative through 4S. In the other, we describe it as through 7S, but that’s never come up😀

The point is that we simply don’t play penalty doubles of their overcalls. Certainly 1C (5D) x is quite likely to be left in by opener, but the double wasn’t penalty and opener is permitted/ encouraged to bid with very shapely hands (including, on this example, no more than 1 diamond and extra shape).

Now, in real life, if an opponent overcalls 6S and partner doubles, I don’t think I’m pulling very often in either partnership.

As for the difference between doubling 4H or 4S, the double of 4H will quite often fetch 4S by opener so responder needs to be comfortable with that possibility. He needn’t have 4+ spades but, if not, he’d better be able to handle correcting the contract.

After a double of 4S, opener will rarely bid 5H, but rarely isn’t never, so responder still has to be prepared. It’s just that opener will pass 4S, rather than go looking for an 11 trick contract, more often than he will 4H, since he will, often have 4 spades and seek the 10 trick game.