[jillybean]

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15-17NT

(Some may recognize this hand from the other place.)

[the hog]

Pass. You do have a partner.

[sfi]

Unlike most problems here, you have multiple good options rather than a bunch of poor choices. What is best depends on your agreements. Could partner have four spades? If so, you could double if that shows spades. If not, raising to 3C looks like a good choice.

Or you can simply pass and see what partner does. The only downside to passing is that you may not be able to get across your good support later.

[ali quarg]

You're in a GF, what's wrong with 2♠?

[mikeh]

Clear pass

Minimum hand, balanced, mediocre support for clubs.

If partner has spades, he’ll bid them and we have an easy raise.

If he doubles, which is ‘cards’, we have an easy 3C

If he bids 2N, again an easy 3C, warning him off 3N unless he has two stoppers or expects to run nine tricks.

If he bids 3D, we bid 3S, showing our shape while denying a heart stop.

Bidding is for players who don’t understand how informative pass is.

For example, double could, I suppose, be played as showing spades but I’d refuse to play it. It is completely unnecessary…..do we really think that partner can’t bid spades himself with 4S and longer clubs and gf values?

Double should be PENALTY. Believe it or not, the 2H bidder isn’t showing AKQJxxx in hearts. We’d all bid 2H on something like xxx AQ109xx Axx x. If not, we must be Trappist monks, sworn to silence

Which means we might have AQx KJxx KQxxx x. Sure, it’s rare (although the family of hands on which he’d bid and we’d like to double is not as small as my hasty example might imply) but why on earth would we voluntarily play a method where they get to bid with impunity. Ok…I know we could pass and hope partner reopens with a double but his hand might suggest some other call.

More importantly, as I hope I have persuaded some, we don’t need double as takeout.

As for an immediate 2S, imo that should be reserved for at least 4=5 in the pointed suits, plus some extras..not much but some, and we lack any.

[DavidKok]

I agree with pass, for all the reasons mikeh listed.
As an aside, presumably 2♣ is 4(+), with 4 only on 3=3=3=4? That hand type might give partner some headaches.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2023-May-01, 22:43, said:

For example, double could, I suppose, be played as showing spades but I’d refuse to play it. It is completely unnecessary…..do we really think that partner can’t bid spades himself with 4S and longer clubs and gf values?

Double should be PENALTY. Believe it or not, the 2H bidder isn’t showing AKQJxxx in hearts. We’d all bid 2H on something like xxx AQ109xx Axx x. If not, we must be Trappist monks, sworn to silence

We play it as showing spades but in the context of it showing an extra king with this shape as we'd have opened this hand 1N.

Also is partner with 4 spades bidding 4♠ over a 4♥ raise ?

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2023-May-01, 22:43, said:

Bidding is for players who don’t understand how informative pass is.

I might steal this.

They bid very differently on that other site, everyone is bidding. After opening 1D, pass was an obvious choice to me.

Of course I don't have this problem of wanting to take another bid as I would have opened 1NT. I think switching to 12-14NT has helped
temper by bidding. Playing 15-17 and opening this 1D I would always have wanted to show the spades.

Thanks for the replies.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-May-02, 02:25, said:

We play it as showing spades but in the context of it showing an extra king with this shape as we'd have opened this hand 1N.

Also is partner with 4 spades bidding 4♠ over a 4♥ raise ?

Partner may well feel reluctant to bid 4S over 4H with Kxxx at best, but he has forced to game opposite what may be and is an indifferent 12 count, so he has a good hand. If the opps, at equal, bid 4H, the chances are that, if he has spades, he is something like 4=1=3=5/4=1=2=6 with an opening hand.

Iow, he’s not passing 4H. He is doubling and now we bid 4S, having limited our hand. He can pull with a good hand without spades, say 3=1=3=6. In contrast, had we bid 2S, he’s under enormous pressure after a 4H bump, since we could easily have a much better hand, such that he pretty much has to at least try for slam….at which point our actual hand is likely to disappoint.

As for using double to show spades, that makes a bit more sense in a weak notrump method if the double shows a strong notrump with spades or a good opener with say 4=1=5=3, but I still prefer that double show a willingness to defend.

[Cyberyeti]

 mikeh, on 2023-May-02, 09:46, said:

Partner may well feel reluctant to bid 4S over 4H with Kxxx at best, but he has forced to game opposite what may be and is an indifferent 12 count, so he has a good hand. If the opps, at equal, bid 4H, the chances are that, if he has spades, he is something like 4=1=3=5/4=1=2=6 with an opening hand.

Iow, he’s not passing 4H. He is doubling and now we bid 4S, having limited our hand. He can pull with a good hand without spades, say 3=1=3=6. In contrast, had we bid 2S, he’s under enormous pressure after a 4H bump, since we could easily have a much better hand, such that he pretty much has to at least try for slam….at which point our actual hand is likely to disappoint.

As for using double to show spades, that makes a bit more sense in a weak notrump method if the double shows a strong notrump with spades or a good opener with say 4=1=5=3, but I still prefer that double show a willingness to defend.

I wasn't sure X from him over 4♥ WAS takeout, we've denied a penalty double as you play the double of 2♥, so does he have to pass with a penalty double rather than making it ? Also much more complicated in the equivalent Acol auction as 2♣ isn't GF, which is another reason to play the first double as T/O.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2023-May-02, 10:24, said:

I wasn't sure X from him over 4♥ WAS takeout, we've denied a penalty double as you play the double of 2♥, so does he have to pass with a penalty double rather than making it ? Also much more complicated in the equivalent Acol auction as 2♣ isn't GF, which is another reason to play the first double as T/O.

As in a number of analogous situations (1D (4H) x) a double of a hypothetical 4H bid by opener's LHO, after we pass 2H, is not 'penalty' but is often left in. Partner of doubler is supposed to pass with most hands and bid with shape. Here, with xx in hearts, it is close but if one trusts the opps, they have a 10 card fit to bid 4H in the face of a game force sequence by their opps, so pulling the double makes sense to me, especially since responder will rarely pass with 3 spades and, if and when he does, it may be a decent spot. Picture KJx xx Axx AQxxx

A little of topic....over 2H it can be useful to play some form of good/bad or bad/good 2N, with x showing a strong notrump oriented hand (given the problem stipulates 15-17 for 1N, double would be 18 or so, if one played it here.