[lute57]

Wondering about the evolution of the 2NT-3S-3NT-4C and 2NT-3S-3NT-4D sequences. It is my understanding these sequences are used to show a single-suited hand with slam interest in the Minor-suit actually bid. That has since evolved into these sequences being used to show a single-suited hand with slam interest in the OTHER MINOR (om). I am trying to grasp the logic of this evolution, but I can't grasp it.

The old system (slam interest in suit actually bid) affords both sequences to fully use what is called the "optional keycard ask." Which is the regular 4-step keycard response system with an additional step added in (as a new first step) to allow Opener to "reject the slam try due to lack of a good hand." Leaving Responder with the option of either signing off in 4NT/5m or continue driving to slam with another bid.

The new system (where Responder bids the opposite Minor) still affords partnership the use of the 5-step "optional keycard ask" with the 2NT-3S-3NT-4C[slam interest in diamonds] sequence.

But the 2NT-3S-3NT-4D[slam interest in clubs] sequence creates a problem because you can't fit in 5-steps without potentially going above game (5C) in clubs. I guess current practice is to truncate the five steps back into four steps by eliminating the "two keycards without a Queen" step. Supposedly, if you possess "two keycards without a Queen" in the sequence with slam interest in clubs, you are to bid the 1-step response "reject the slam try due to lack of a good hand."

Apparently, there is a good reason for these sequences to have evolved into being slam interest for the "Other Minor." But it eludes me. Any help would be appreciated. Also, if bidding the "Other Minor" is the method of choice, any suggestions on what to do with two keycards (without the queen) when Responder signs off with a 4NT/5m bid?

[DavidKok]

I think it is for rightsiding, avoiding bidding the suit with the weak and unbalanced hand. Neither of these bids should be optional keycards - it is premature to start asking about aces when other features in opener's hand are likely more important.

Incidentally I think other treatments are an improvement on this, but it's such a rare sequence that it really doesn't matter. I recommend taking a step back and spelling out what you wish to achieve on these sequences, and what you can (not) achieve on other sequences after 2NT. I don't think 'optional minorwood' is the biggest system gap you will find over a 2NT opening.

[helene_t]

What about
4c -> diamonds
4d = clubs with 0 keycards
4h = clubs with 1 keycard
Etc

[mw64ahw]

helene_t, on 2024-April-22, 17:33, said:

What about
4c -> diamonds
4d = clubs with 0 keycards
4h = clubs with 1 keycard
Etc

This works, you could play Kickbo with 4♦ showing an even number of keycards and other bids showing an odd number with a control in a suit. In practice I guess the weak hand will rarely have more than 2KCs or 1 with the Q♣ and you may find that voids are a feature that makes the slam biddable.

[pescetom]

We play that it is a Kickback in the other minor - to right-side, as Davidkok supposed. I agree with him that it is probably not optimal, but it is low memory load and delivers the eggs.
I don't see any problem with normal RKCB 1403 replies, except the minor issue that you can't play in 4NT if you don't like 2 clubs Keycards and the Queen - I wouldn't make any changes just for that.

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2024-April-23, 02:39, said:

We play that it is a Kickback in the other minor - to right-side, as Davidkok supposed. I agree with him that it is probably not optimal, but it is low memory load and delivers the eggs.
I don't see any problem with normal RKCB 1403 replies, except the minor issue that you can't play in 4NT if you don't like 2 Keycards and the diamonds Queen.

It may be better to play 3014 if 2N is more likely to have 3 rather than 4 keycards? Any stats anyone?

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2024-April-23, 04:30, said:

It may be better to play 3014 if 2N is more likely to have 3 rather than 4 keycards? Any stats anyone?

3014 makes no difference here, it's only the 2+Q reply that is any issue at all. People who use 4NT as RKCB over suits other than spades have much bigger problems and still don't change their replies.

As for 3014 versus 1403 in general, I play 1403 throughout the system. Mainly because we use 4NT over hearts, where 3014 will cost you the Queen ask with one Keycard. If you are going to use 4NT over clubs (which is not a great idea) then 0314 is probably better. But the most important thing is that neither player will forget the agreements (which rules out playing different replies in different contexts, at least for my partners).

[lute57]

DavidKok, on 2024-April-22, 16:22, said:

I think it is for rightsiding, avoiding bidding the suit with the weak and unbalanced hand. Neither of these bids should be optional keycards - it is premature to start asking about aces when other features in opener's hand are likely more important.

Incidentally I think other treatments are an improvement on this, but it's such a rare sequence that it really doesn't matter. I recommend taking a step back and spelling out what you wish to achieve on these sequences, and what you can (not) achieve on other sequences after 2NT. I don't think 'optional minorwood' is the biggest system gap you will find over a 2NT opening.

Thank you, David. Rightsiding was my first thought, too. But the truncation of the "optional minorwood" involving the club suit (2N-3S-3N-4D) seemed like a hefty price to pay.

I got this stuff from a lesson at David Wolpert's bridge site. Funny, you say "other treatments are an improvement on this" because that is exactly what David says in his own lesson plan! He gives a hyperlink on what he actually plays with his regular partner. His reason for using what I posted was it is more "standard" for play with pickup partners.

The lesson itself was on "Opening 2NT Response Structure" and as you pointed out, there are plenty of system gaps over a 2NT opening. I think David's lesson does an admirable job in addressing them and highly recommend his site for aspiring players. Myself, I am only an intermediate player and I might have been presumptuous to post in the Expert area, but I felt that is where I would find the best answer.

[smerriman]

lute57, on 2024-April-23, 21:17, said:

His reason for using what I posted was it is more "standard" for play with pickup partners.

With a pickup partner I would always assume 4♣ / 4♦ were natural, with follow-ups control showing. Reversing the meanings and/or having optional minorwood would both have to be agreed with a regular partner only.