[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

as a follow up to the thread that dealt with slam bidding, , a hand I just played,
minimal agreements are in place, but assume, what ever you want.
You have agreed to play BBO standard, whatever this means, you meant it, as you
sit down at a random table at BBO, without discussion, facing a reasonable player.

You hold

KTxx
Ax
Kxxx
xxx

Partner opens, the oponets are silent, the auction develops

1S - 3S (1)
4C (2) - ... (3)

(1) limit raise, you assume, it could be based on only 3 card support
(2) cue
(3) your bid, what is you plan, if you bid 4D and get a 4H / 4S response?

As always, the reason why a specific bid was choosen, is more important,
than what would have worked on the specific deal.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

I'll cooperate, 4♦
This is not the hand I'll make a move over 4♥ or 4♠ with.

[smerriman]

I'm bidding 4♦, but if partner bids 4♠ I'm continuing since that's exactly how partner will bid if they have enough HCP for slam but no heart control. Ideally they ruled out weaker hands with just some slam interest by bypassing 3NT. As to how to continue - my choices appear to be 4NT or 5♥, but since I'm not sure how to accurately find out about trump holdings after 5♥, I'm bidding 4NT.

If partner bids 4♥ instead, then I'm just bidding 4♠.

Most likely I have this horribly wrong again and my lack of knowledge is shocking to experts; no doubt we'll soon find out.

[mw64ahw]

If 4♣ is a slam try then control wise responder can't be much stronger. I'll bid 4N directly showing even KCs, the ♦ & ♥ controls & a ♠ honour. With partner 1♠-3♠ would be preemptive with the 4-card lim+ raise going via 2N

BBO standard you would bid 4♥ showing the Ace. Does the immediate raise also guarantee 4♠ or am I thinking back to my original Goren days?

[akwoo]

In Goren, 1♠-3♠ was game forcing with 4 card support.

If I really do trust partner, I'm bidding 4N, RKCB. I can hardly have a better hand. If we're not missing 2 keycards (or 1 and the queen) and we don't make slam, I don't know what partner was making a control bid over a limit raise with.

[apollo1201]

 smerriman, on 2024-October-03, 22:00, said:

but if partner bids 4♠ I m continuing since that s exactly how partner will bid if they have enough HCP for slam but no heart control.

They would bid 5S or 5m if what they desperately needed to hear is the H control. Or they should have started cueing at 4D to hear the next control (if they need to hear C control, they bid 3NT, that is not natural if we really promised 4-cd support).

Given a limit raise is a pretty narrowly defined bid, when they launched cueing, they knew we were in slam zone and all we needed to check was control of other suits. I have a super max raise, top cards and that H control (by the A) that partner failed to extract from me with their last 2 bids, so I will go over and re discuss cueing after the deal.

But if partner bids 4H, sth like we have all covered bur I am not sure to continue, it is a bit contradictory with the we are in slam zone facing your limit raise that 4C implied. I will continue but either partner started cueing with a little less than required and was shooting for a max raise (which I have, I hope), or lacks confidence.

[masse24]

"Facing a reasonable player."

I'll start with 4♦.
Over 4♥, 5♥.
Over 4♠, likely the same.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2024-October-03, 21:29, said:

I'll cooperate, 4♦
This is not the hand I'll make a move over 4♥ or 4♠ with.

The question to answer, how much better could your hand be?
And the main question is, did you show the 4th trump? This is a system question.
If the answer is yes, your hand is nice, but maybe not supper max., if the answer is
no, there is not much room left for better hands:

#1 4 card support
#2 2 Key cards
#3 a ruffing value
#4 Controls in all remaining suits

At the table I blasted 6S, since I was under the impression, that I had only shown 3+ card support,
which was down 1.
The main reason being, your beautiful Ace of hearts and your ruffing value looke nice,
but faced a singleton. Looks can deceive.

An alternative to balsting was 4NT, this will avoid the slam, if you are missing 1KC and
the Queen of trumps, although slam will be ok, if p has a 6th spade.

And also a counter quant. invite via 5S, ..., but you would need to be on the same wavelength
with regards to the meaning of 5S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DavidKok]

I would have bid on past a signoff, though as a rule I don't jump to slams. I'm curious what partner's hand is - if an extra trump and four controls weren't enough to make slam good, what were they hoping to find?
Without knowing the exact hand it is difficult to judge but it sounds like partner had an unbalanced hand with a long minor suit that didn't come in. How many cover cards were needed to make the slam good? With short hearts opposite I expect the ♦K to be working, but maybe it wasn't?

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2024-October-06, 03:36, said:

I would have bid on past a signoff, though as a rule I don't jump to slams. I'm curious what partner's hand is - if an extra trump and four controls weren't enough to make slam good, what were they hoping to find?
Without knowing the exact hand it is difficult to judge but it sounds like partner had an unbalanced hand with a long minor suit that didn't come in. How many cover cards were needed to make the slam good? With short hearts opposite I expect the ♦K to be working, but maybe it wasn't?

I dont have the exact hand any more, it was a nice team event, with red wine an so on.
He needed the king of clubs finesse, which lost, and he lost a 2nd club trick, we had enough the controls, the king of diamonds worked,
in a sense, but maybe was also overvalued, so my guess is, that he was 5521.

The main reason I posted it, was giving examples, to discuss, pinpointing aspects of your system, that matter (limit raises showing 3 / 4
card support).
An option, he may have choosen, if he could have been sure, that it was understood, was using 3NT as serious, to find honor location, but than
again, is 3NT a slam move, or an offer to play?

In retrospect, a heart cue may have worked better than I thought, if partner cannot move over 4H, he may have xx oppossite the king, you may
miss slam, if he happens to hold Qx but that is life.

[bluenikki]

P_Marlowe, on 2024-October-06, 10:25, said:

An option, he may have choosen, if he could have been sure, that it was understood, was using 3NT as serious, to find honor location, but than
again, is 3NT a slam move, or an offer to play?

If the jump raise could be 3-card with no singleton, aren't you forced to have 3NT be an offer to play?

[mike777]

masse24, on 2024-October-04, 16:07, said:

"Facing a reasonable player."

I'll start with 4♦.












Over 4♥, 5♥.
Over 4♠, likely the same.

This, well said. I would only add the concept of captaincy. You have limited your hand, that makes partner Captain on this example. That means partner is in charge.
If he wants he will ask for Aces. In this example he is asking you to cuebid or sign off. Good luck.