[jillybean]

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ACBL

2♥ preempt
3♣ North thought they were playing 3♣ as shortness ask
4♣ raising partners suit
4♥ After 4♣, North realizes mistake , no agreement to play 3♣ ask in this partnership.


Before the opening lead, North advises that he bid 3♣ as shortness ask.

Director is called.

Players told to play hand.

What questions do you ask, how do you rule?

[smerriman]

Does 4♣ exist as a response to a 3♣ shortness ask; if so, what does it mean?

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2024-November-14, 01:34, said:

Does 4♣ exist as a response to a 3♣ shortness ask; if so, what does it mean?

4C does not exist in response to 3C shortness ask.

[mycroft]

Are you convinced that they do not play 3♣ shortness ask? If so, North didn't even have to say anything; they did, which should not hurt the defence.

So much for MI. [ETA: I see the discussion on the Other Site. As I said, I agree you check. But the same people who say "E-W were damaged because north convinced us not to bid our suit" are the ones who would laud a "Zia control bid" with a stronger hand and ♣xx, when they didn't find their club lead into 6♥. I see zero difference between that and "I knew it was forward-going with a suit, I could control the auction into hearts, I was trying to [stop a club lead|inhibit a club sacrifice]". Why is this kind of "tactical bid" okay, and misbidding not - when both are legal, and for both there is no recourse for the opponents?]

UI: North is never playing anything but hearts. He was (I assume) looking for diamond shortness, or playing 3♥. Oh well, whatever 4♣ meant, we can't play 3♥ any more. Let's hope we're not off two diamonds, a club and a spade, or three diamonds, two clubs and a spade, for that matter.

You're not thinking North is thinking slam, are you? That needs a stiff diamond *and* an outside Ace and King. Sure, the hearts are known Kxxxxx at best, but really?

4♣ is Always Gerber? Even here?

Are you convinced that North did nothing during the auction to show surprise? Okay, so South has no UI and is free to guess however she wishes.

Okay, opponents, I don't see an infraction. If you do, show me.

[jillybean]

100% convinced N/S do not play shortness ask and also sure North would not have given partner UI after the freaky 4♣ response.

It appears to be quite a simple ruling, although not popular.

[smerriman]

mycroft, on 2024-November-14, 10:43, said:

Why is this kind of "tactical bid" okay, and misbidding not - when both are legal, and for both there is no recourse for the opponents?]

If North is in the habit of making such a tactical bid or misbid, then it's only legal if this is disclosed to the opponents (which it wasn't). But assuming not, then result stands seems clear.

[pescetom]

Maybe everyone except me has read that other site and that somehow makes my reply less obvious, but I would start with asking South what 3C meant and what now is the agreed meaning of Pass (if permitted), 3D, 3C, 3S, 3NT and particularly 4C.

[jillybean]

South will tell you 3♣ is forward going, forcing. 4♣ is showing club support
I'm guessing 3♦, 3♠ is denying club support and showing control for 3nt, 3nt is to play.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2024-November-14, 18:49, said:

South will tell you 3♣ is forward going, forcing. 4♣ is showing club support
I'm guessing 3♦, 3♠ is denying club support and showing control for 3nt, 3nt is to play.

Thanks, saw the rest on that other site.

From a bridge point of view 3♣ stinks whatever the agreement.
But the consensus there is right of course, you can't hang them this time unless there was an unmentioned instabid over 4♣.
One thing not mentioned (or I missed) is their level. If they clearly do not know what they are doing then pazienza, as they say around here. If not, then I would record it at club level for future reference (the other TD who caught them speeding with Ogust and weak fit).

FWIW I found more interesting (and very disappointing in terms of depth of replies) the debate on EBU psyche policy and the related issue of a control. But I'm off to direct and tomorrow I face 54 boards (gulp) in a national teams tournament, so maybe that can wait until Sunday

[jillybean]

I will have to go back and read about EBU Psyches.

Directing today, playing tomorrow? I hope to see some interesting posts. Good luck.