[jillybean]

---

3♣ or whatever your 4 card limit raise is

Your plan? I already despise the bidding space the limit raise has taken

[pescetom]

For us the limit raise is 2NT and I would check back with 3♣ now, to be certain it was 4 cards and to discover something about shape and any shortage.


I hate the choice of 3♣ as a raise, it's much more useful as natural. But over that, surely you can control bid 4♣ now, hoping for 4♦.

[Cyberyeti]

Our limit+ 4 card raise is 2N, now 3♣ long suit style, usually 4, occasionally 3

[pescetom]

Are NS any good? There are thirteen hearts cards somewhere and the opponents have favourable vulnerability. I'm not very optimistic if partner is 4=5 in the majors.

[jillybean]

North is excellent but is playing with a new player so is being conservative.
Some North's may have thrown in ♥ bid at these colors.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2025-October-03, 09:40, said:

For us the limit raise is 2NT and I would check back with 3♣ now, to be certain it was 4 cards and to discover something about shape and any shortage.


I hate the choice of 3♣ as a raise, it's much more useful as natural. But over that, surely you can control bid 4♣ now, hoping for 4♦.

Cyberyeti, on 2025-October-03, 10:03, said:

Our limit+ 4 card raise is 2N, now 3♣ long suit style, usually 4, occasionally 3

We still use 2nt as Jacoby, game force.

Yes, 4♣ gets a 4♦ response. No room for exclusion.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2025-October-03, 11:09, said:

Yes, 4♣ gets a 4♦ response. No room for exclusion.

Who wants exclusion here? Now 4♥ is fine.
Hoping to hear 4NT (even keycards), if not we rebid 5♠ and may have got ourselves into another fine mess.

[Ranmit]

If playing 2/1 we play 2NT = 4 card limit+ raise; after which partner bids 3♣ = GF, shortness somewhere; 3♦ = GF, 5 card side suit.
So our auction would go:
1♠ 2NT;
3♦ (5 card side suit, GF) 3♥ (where?);
3♠ (in clubs) 4♦/4♥ (control bid);

If partner has no D control, just bid 4♠ - else I jump to 5♥ Exclusion, signing off in 5♠ if partner has 0 KCs. Yes, that might go down on a diamond lead if partner just has ♦Kx(xx).

[Huibertus]

pescetom, on 2025-October-03, 09:40, said:

For us the limit raise is 2NT and I would check back with 3♣ now, to be certain it was 4 cards and to discover something about shape and any shortage.

2NT should promise a 4 card and partner never should use it with just 3. Partly because this actual hand needs to be sure, so he can inform rather then inquire. This is a hand to advocate what you have (a black 2 suiter with slam interest) not to ask anything.

[DavidKok]

I play Maas 1♠-2NT, showing a 3(+)-card limit raise or minimum GF. Over this I can bid 4♣, showing a shape-based slam try 5-5 or longer black two-suiter. In simple versions of Maas this 4♣ bid is commonly played as a club splinter, but I prefer the shape-showing bid and putting the splinter slam tries through the generic 3♣ asking bid.

Huibertus, on 2025-October-03, 13:44, said:

2NT should promise a 4 card and partner never should use it with just 3. Partly because this actual hand needs to be sure, so he can inform rather then inquire. This is a hand to advocate what you have (a black 2 suiter with slam interest) not to ask anything.

Maybe in your system, but I prefer something else.


Over OP's actual auction I think we need to start a control bidding sequence with 4♣. Over 1♠-3♣ as a 4(+)-card limit raise I think using 3♥ as a natural game try and 3♦ as a generic game try is as good as anything, also because it preserves symmetry with 1♥-3♣. This means both those bids are risky, and we should bypass the heart control to show the clubs. It's unfortunate that this doesn't show shape, but so be it. The fact that partner is in a good position to show or deny a diamond cue is great news.
I do think the lack of interference in hearts is concerning, especially since we have 13 opposite 9-11 and we're fishing for some 24 HCP slam here. However, this has been sufficiently addressed upthread.
To me the bidding space usage isn't egregious. I'm not a fan of Bergen raises in general, but establishing a 4-card limit raise by 3♣ is plenty low.

[mike777]

4C now, forward going
Over 4D will unfortunately bid 5H and have yet another exclusion accident..

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-October-03, 16:45, said:

4C now, forward going
Over 4D will unfortunately bid 5H and have yet another exclusion accident..

Because 5H/4D is not exclusion?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-October-03, 17:16, said:

Because 5H/4D is not exclusion?

Hopefully and hopefully we have discussed responses and follow up...

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-October-03, 17:17, said:

Hopefully and hopefully we have discussed responses and follow up...

I've always played exclusion as a double jump. What are you hoping to hear next?

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2025-October-03, 12:22, said:

Who wants exclusion here? Now 4♥ is fine.
Hoping to hear 4NT (even keycards), if not we rebid 5♠ and may have got ourselves into another fine mess.

edit I left out a round of bidding

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-October-03, 17:22, said:

Hold on. What is 4♥, reverse kickback?

That was after 4♣ - 4♦, so just a heart control I would expect. Though I'm unsure why 3♥ was skipped to begin with, unless that was natural?

[akwoo]

I prefer to play 2N as limit+ 4 card raise.

In that auction, I bid 3N, showing heart shortness, accepting the invitation. If partner bids 4♠, I pass. If partner bids 4♥, I sign off in 4♠. If partner bids 4♣ or 4♦, I bid 4♥ and will make one more try if they bid 4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4H.

Over 4S you are worth another try, you can follow up with 5H,
which showes the void.
If p showes up with spade Ace and Diamond AK, he can bid 7S,
if he has only one Ace, he can bid 6S, 6S may not be cold and
down due to lead, but 6520 dont come up to often.

The advantage of 3C is, that 4H is clearly a splinter.
I still prefer a natural 3S as limit, but as it is, 3C works out
fine.

Over a natural 3S limit raise, I would bid 4C, if p showes a diamond
control, I make another try with 5H, void.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

---

This was the auction at the table, the only EW to get to 6

Can you get there on a normal auction?

1♠ :3♣
3♥:4♦
?

1♠:2nt limit +
?

[mike777]

23 hcp slams by definition are difficult to bid