[humilities]

None Vul, Dealer South

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IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?

[mtvesuvius]

As almost all my partners will tell you, I am a HUGE advocate of upgrading hands with 5, 6 and even 7 card minors into/out of 1N. As much as I like to do that, I can't find a reason to do so on this particular hand. The lack of club honours makes it very difficult to run the suit, and this seems like a comfortable 1♣ then 1N if you want to treat it as Balanced... Personally I'd probably rebid 2♣ for the next reason: Not much positional values. With more stray queens or kings I might be tempted to rebid NT, but this hand really wants to be played from partner's side IMO.

All that being said, it's tough to really judge accurately how much to upgrade until you do things like this a few times. Learning hand evaluation through trial and error is IMO the best way.

By opening any hand with a 5 or 6 card suit with 1N, you often give up on playing in that strain. The reason why this is so popular with minors is that 3N will usually play better than 5m. The opposite is generally true for slams, and you will miss some slams by opening those hands with 1N. It's a trade-off you choose to make, and one that I generally believe is worthwhile... Others will certainly disagree.

Even if you opened 1♣, it may be tough to reach slam in clubs. This is a good example hand of why it can sometimes be bad to open 1N with the long suits... But if I had Kx Qx Axx KQxxxx I would have certainly opened 1N... Now once again 6♣ is cold, and I would miss slam.

Bridge in general is a game of trade-offs, you and partner need to find and agree on which you choose to make. For me, opening 1N works much better than 1 of the suit in general.

[kenrexford]

It sure seems like partner could have saved this one.

1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣

This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.

[mtvesuvius]

kenrexford, on 2011-January-19, 19:26, said:

It sure seems like partner could have saved this one.

1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣

This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.

That really seems like you're resulting. With the South hand it seems normal to either transfer and make a mild slam try, or just texas into spades. Showing the clubs is a fairly unnecessary diversion.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kenrexford, on 2011-January-19, 19:26, said:

It sure seems like partner could have saved this one.

1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣

This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.

This system I prefer uses 3C! = GF, and may be artificial, but could just have a long Sp suit.
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :

1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c

After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:

3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .

[whereagles]

mr.volcano, that's resulting. I don't think you'd open 1♣ and rebid that raggy suit. 1NT seems normal, unless you devaluate the hand to a balanced 14.

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-19, 20:49, said:

This system I prefer uses 3C! = GF, and may be artificial, but could just have a long Sp suit.
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :

1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c

After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:

3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .

I also like 3♣ as clubs-or-long-spades here, which may be tainting my view. That approach seems to save quite a bit of space in many needed scenarios.

[Free]

I voted you're an idiot, not because I think you're an idiot, but because I don't consider this a 1NT opening at all. I can hardly say it's a poor choice, it's worse imo.

Upgrading is fine, opening 1NT with a 6 card minor is also fine. But there's no reason to do it on this hand imo. You can just open 1♣ and rebid either 1NT or 2♣, nicely describing your hand and strength.

[gwnn]

I really love opening 1NT but this is a little bit too much..

[whereagles]

oh.. I just noticed the hand has only 14 hcp. Well, that makes 1NT way less attractive, even though the same hand with the ♣Q instead of the jack is a very normal 1NT opener and the auction will probably be the same.

[Fluffy]

Ace empty suits and AK want to play on the side suit opposite doubleton if that's an option, but a 7-4 is too much.

[xxhong]

With weak 6 card minors, it is usually a good idea to open 1m and rebid 2m, even in the range of 15 or some bad 16 HCP. One reason for this treatment is that such kind of hands can be very very powerful when a fit in the minor is found and when there is no good fit, it is often not too bad to stay out of games. After 1NT opening, usually such kind of features are not easy to show.
In my system, the hand can be bid as:
1C 1S
2C 3D( shortness, 4+C, here splinter stiff K is fine, cause you don't really need partner's Q for pitches)
3H(cue) 3S(long spades)
4D(RKC) 4N(two KC, no Q)
6C ( since you know partner shows 4+C, C Q is usually not needed to have some play in C. )

humilities, on 2011-January-19, 17:07, said:

None Vul, Dealer South

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IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?

[mike gill]

I think 1N is good because of the tenaces but it's too much of an overbid for my tastes. Also you have no 3-card majors which would give you another way to win by finding a 5-3 fit. Add the dJ or dQ and I think most people would support opening 1N. I do not think partner should be worrying about finding clubs.

[the_dude]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-19, 20:49, said:

This system I prefer uses 3C! = GF, and may be artificial, but could just have a long Sp suit.
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :

1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c

After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:

3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .

I'm intrigued by this .. but have never seen it written up. Can I assume that other sequences follow the same logic? ie. Responder transfers to ♥ then bid 3♦ .. then 3♠shows 2♥ and 4+♦ and 4♦ shows both? Or does 4♣ always show both with 4♦ followup reserved as something artificial? Are there any notes on this anywhere? Thanks

[MrAce]

I will not judge your 1 NT opening. It is a matter of taste. It is ironic though, those who believes this ♣ suit is not good enough for opening 1 NT, suggests to open 1♣ and rebid 2♣.

I think you should either open an agressive 1 NT, or rebid 1 NT after opening 1♣. This is a balanced hand, with stoppers in every suit and a very bad 6 cards ♣.

[xxhong]

Opening 1C then rebid 1NT would make it very difficult to show 6 clubs in latter rounds. Usually, my bidding design is not for one shot business. Rebidding 2C would allow to explore more different possibilities when you belong to games or slams. When the suit is weak, you may miss more good games or slams when partner also holds some not so strong but long support,which often swing the game if you have the device to find the 6-4 fit in games or slams. In some sense, 2C rebid looks ugly, but effective when you find fit. 1NT looks nicer, but doesn't really solve a lot of problems.

MrAce, on 2011-January-20, 17:19, said:

I will not judge your 1 NT opening. It is a matter of taste. It is ironic though, those who believes this ♣ suit is not good enough for opening 1 NT, suggests to open 1♣ and rebid 2♣.

I think you should either open an agressive 1 NT, or rebid 1 NT after opening 1♣. This is a balanced hand, with stoppers in every suit and a very bad 6 cards ♣.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

the_dude, on 2011-January-20, 13:36, said:

I'm intrigued by this .. but have never seen it written up. Can I assume that other sequences follow the same logic? ie. Responder transfers to ♥ then bid 3♦ .. then 3♠shows 2♥ and 4+♦ and 4♦ shows both? Or does 4♣ always show both with 4♦ followup reserved as something artificial? Are there any notes on this anywhere? Thanks

I picked it up from the now defunct MSN Bridge Message Board from a fellow named IanD, but he didn't use 3C! as artificial ( 3C or 3D were always natural 2nd suits ).
I made up the "disclaimer" followups when you only have the long Major and not Clubs as a 2nd suit (in my post #5 ). Perhaps KenRexford has some notes... or something in one of his books.

3D is always natural and is Opener's 2nd suit, so you don't need a "disclaimer bid" as in the 3C! case.

I don't know of another way to create a low-level GF in these 1NT transfer auctions when Responder has a long Major.

[Lurpoa]

humilities, on 2011-January-19, 17:07, said:

None Vul, Dealer South

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IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?

Not enough honnor-cards in ♣ to upgrade to 1NT.
Besides a very good rebid in 2C is available.

[HeartA]

I want to vote #2 and #4. 1NT is not good, but I don't want to use the word "idiot". It is an OK choice.

South had better keep open on both back suits. It is quite possible that North has 5 clubs, like ♠Kx, ♥Axx, ♦Axx, ♣KJxxx (or even ♣KQxxx a grand slam).

[kenrexford]

FWIW, since somewhat asked, here's the method I like:

1NT-P-transfer-P-2M-P-3♣ = real clubs, short clubs (6-card major in this event), or just "waiting" with 5332 and slam interest.

Opener's Options:

1. Opt Responder's major (3-card suit). Responder will then be able to clarify his intentions by bidding shortness in a side suit if he holds real clubs and slam interest, bidding 4♣ if he really had SHORT clubs (and hence six of his major), or bidding 3NT with slam interest and no shortness (presumably 5M/4♣/2-2, but any 5332 also possible)

2. Introduce the other major with a 5-card suit, 5332 pattern, 2-card in Responder's major

3. Bid 3♦ as an "acceptance" of clubs (only 2-card in Responder's major; flexible as to whether excited or just mild). Responder can suggest sign out at 3NT (quantitative 5332), rebid his major to show a 6-card suit (setting trumps, with slam interest), or bid anything else to confirm clubs and move toward slam (a cue below 3NT of the other major being "last train" rather than true).

4. Bid 4♣ as a club super-acceptance with 3-card major support. Responder can bid 4♦ as RKCB for clubs; 4M as 6-card with stiff club, or 4M+1 as RKCB for major.

5. OTHER = whatever weird jumps would mean in your partnership in this sort of situation.