IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?
Wrong Slam
#1
Posted 2011-January-19, 17:07
IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?
Sometimes I use big words I don't fully understand to make myself seem more photosynthesis.
#2
Posted 2011-January-19, 18:07
All that being said, it's tough to really judge accurately how much to upgrade until you do things like this a few times. Learning hand evaluation through trial and error is IMO the best way.
By opening any hand with a 5 or 6 card suit with 1N, you often give up on playing in that strain. The reason why this is so popular with minors is that 3N will usually play better than 5m. The opposite is generally true for slams, and you will miss some slams by opening those hands with 1N. It's a trade-off you choose to make, and one that I generally believe is worthwhile... Others will certainly disagree.
Even if you opened 1♣, it may be tough to reach slam in clubs. This is a good example hand of why it can sometimes be bad to open 1N with the long suits... But if I had Kx Qx Axx KQxxxx I would have certainly opened 1N... Now once again 6♣ is cold, and I would miss slam.
Bridge in general is a game of trade-offs, you and partner need to find and agree on which you choose to make. For me, opening 1N works much better than 1 of the suit in general.
#3
Posted 2011-January-19, 19:26
1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣
This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.
-P.J. Painter.
#4
Posted 2011-January-19, 19:35
kenrexford, on 2011-January-19, 19:26, said:
1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣
This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.
That really seems like you're resulting. With the South hand it seems normal to either transfer and make a mild slam try, or just texas into spades. Showing the clubs is a fairly unnecessary diversion.
#5
Posted 2011-January-19, 20:49
kenrexford, on 2011-January-19, 19:26, said:
1NT-P-2♥-P-
2♠-P-3♣
This seems like a reasonable start. Responder will find out whether Opener has two or three spades, which will be very important. This assumes, of course, that Responder will have a method for insisting spades when Opener rejects clubs. In practice, if Opener has a means of supporting clubs, you end up with a chance of getting to the right spot.
This system I prefer uses 3C! = GF, and may be artificial, but could just have a long Sp suit.
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :
1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c
After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:
3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#6
Posted 2011-January-20, 06:14
#7
Posted 2011-January-20, 06:35
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-19, 20:49, said:
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :
1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c
After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:
3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .
I also like 3♣ as clubs-or-long-spades here, which may be tainting my view. That approach seems to save quite a bit of space in many needed scenarios.
-P.J. Painter.
#8
Posted 2011-January-20, 06:44
Upgrading is fine, opening 1NT with a 6 card minor is also fine. But there's no reason to do it on this hand imo. You can just open 1♣ and rebid either 1NT or 2♣, nicely describing your hand and strength.
#9
Posted 2011-January-20, 07:09
George Carlin
#10
Posted 2011-January-20, 08:00
#11
Posted 2011-January-20, 09:19
#12
Posted 2011-January-20, 11:26
In my system, the hand can be bid as:
1C 1S
2C 3D( shortness, 4+C, here splinter stiff K is fine, cause you don't really need partner's Q for pitches)
3H(cue) 3S(long spades)
4D(RKC) 4N(two KC, no Q)
6C ( since you know partner shows 4+C, C Q is usually not needed to have some play in C. )
humilities, on 2011-January-19, 17:07, said:
IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?
#13
Posted 2011-January-20, 12:09
#14
Posted 2011-January-20, 13:36
TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-January-19, 20:49, said:
On this deal a bit of serendipity occurs when Opener has a Cl suit and only 2 cards Sp :
1NT - 2H!
2S - 3C!
??
.. 3D! = cheapest new suit agrees Cl and only 2 cards Sp.
.. 3S! = long Sp suit, and no real Cl suit
.. 3NT = agree neither
.. 4C! = agree both: 3s AND 4+c
After:
3D! - ?? Responder was going to just rebid 3S to show his long Sp suit ( and cancel interest in a Cl suit ), but a surprising turn of events occurs when Opener really has a Cl suit too; with no 2 quick losers in any other suit, Responder invokes 4C! = minorwood to find out about Cl honors:
3D! - 4C!
4S! ( 2 - cQ ) - ?? Now Responder knows they are missing either a red Ace or the cK as well as the cQ so he makes a surprising PASS of 4S .
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Side issue: I wonder how OP reached his 6S slam ?
I bet is was TEXAS followed by 4NT ( RKC ) .
I'm intrigued by this .. but have never seen it written up. Can I assume that other sequences follow the same logic? ie. Responder transfers to ♥ then bid 3♦ .. then 3♠shows 2♥ and 4+♦ and 4♦ shows both? Or does 4♣ always show both with 4♦ followup reserved as something artificial? Are there any notes on this anywhere? Thanks
#15
Posted 2011-January-20, 17:19
I think you should either open an agressive 1 NT, or rebid 1 NT after opening 1♣. This is a balanced hand, with stoppers in every suit and a very bad 6 cards ♣.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#16
Posted 2011-January-20, 18:14
MrAce, on 2011-January-20, 17:19, said:
I think you should either open an agressive 1 NT, or rebid 1 NT after opening 1♣. This is a balanced hand, with stoppers in every suit and a very bad 6 cards ♣.
#17
Posted 2011-January-20, 20:12
the_dude, on 2011-January-20, 13:36, said:
I picked it up from the now defunct MSN Bridge Message Board from a fellow named IanD, but he didn't use 3C! as artificial ( 3C or 3D were always natural 2nd suits ).
I made up the "disclaimer" followups when you only have the long Major and not Clubs as a 2nd suit (in my post #5 ). Perhaps KenRexford has some notes... or something in one of his books.
3D is always natural and is Opener's 2nd suit, so you don't need a "disclaimer bid" as in the 3C! case.
I don't know of another way to create a low-level GF in these 1NT transfer auctions when Responder has a long Major.
TWOferBRIDGE
"imo by far in bridge the least understood concept is how to bid over a jump-shift
( 1M-1NT!-3m-?? )." ....Justin Lall
" Did someone mention relays? " .... Zelandakh
K-Rex to Mikeh : " Sometimes you drive me nuts " .
#18
Posted 2011-January-21, 02:30
humilities, on 2011-January-19, 17:07, said:
IMPS, playing pretty standard 2/1 with 15-17 NT, I opened the North hand 1NT which resulted in us getting to 6♠ instead of 6♣. Am I an idiot or just unlucky on this hand?
Not enough honnor-cards in ♣ to upgrade to 1NT.
Besides a very good rebid in 2C is available.
#19
Posted 2011-January-22, 00:49
South had better keep open on both back suits. It is quite possible that North has 5 clubs, like ♠Kx, ♥Axx, ♦Axx, ♣KJxxx (or even ♣KQxxx a grand slam).
#20
Posted 2011-January-22, 06:23
1NT-P-transfer-P-2M-P-3♣ = real clubs, short clubs (6-card major in this event), or just "waiting" with 5332 and slam interest.
Opener's Options:
1. Opt Responder's major (3-card suit). Responder will then be able to clarify his intentions by bidding shortness in a side suit if he holds real clubs and slam interest, bidding 4♣ if he really had SHORT clubs (and hence six of his major), or bidding 3NT with slam interest and no shortness (presumably 5M/4♣/2-2, but any 5332 also possible)
2. Introduce the other major with a 5-card suit, 5332 pattern, 2-card in Responder's major
3. Bid 3♦ as an "acceptance" of clubs (only 2-card in Responder's major; flexible as to whether excited or just mild). Responder can suggest sign out at 3NT (quantitative 5332), rebid his major to show a 6-card suit (setting trumps, with slam interest), or bid anything else to confirm clubs and move toward slam (a cue below 3NT of the other major being "last train" rather than true).
4. Bid 4♣ as a club super-acceptance with 3-card major support. Responder can bid 4♦ as RKCB for clubs; 4M as 6-card with stiff club, or 4M+1 as RKCB for major.
5. OTHER = whatever weird jumps would mean in your partnership in this sort of situation.
-P.J. Painter.