[mtvesuvius]

I was kibitzing/commentating the Australian Youth Butler when this auction came up:

What should this mean?

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As an additional question, what would you bid with the actual hand:

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Assume a standardish 2/1 with 15-17 NT.

[inquiry]

It is most useful as long clubs and diamond support, a hand similiar to one you showed. I would like a little more in the way of controls, or the vulnerability to be reversed, but I would at least consider it with the hand you held.

In a pickup game with an average player, I would probably assume it to be blackwood however, because what it should be and what people play it as is, unfortunately, two completely different things.

[jillybean]

If 4N is ♦'&♣'s how would you ask for aces in this sequence 1♦ (4♥) ?

Why not bid 5♣ with long clubs and diamond support and keep 4N for the Ace ask? I doubt you would need 5♣ for exclusion or anything here.

[dake50]

Long clubs with D-fit.
But much stronger slammy than this -- 4-fit + 1xA?
This hand just bids 5D.
Keep partner trusting other bids are slammy.

[MrAce]

jillybean, on 2011-January-20, 00:41, said:

Why not bid 5♣ with long clubs and diamond support and keep 4N for the Ace ask? I doubt you would need 5♣ for exclusion or anything here.

Because there are hands where u have only ♣ suit and strong hand, without ♦s.



To me this is RKCB. (With a pick up pd) I do not seek precision after a heavy preempt like this.

With the hand u gave, i would suck it up and pass.

But i think i can be convinced to play ♦ supp + ♣

[mich-b]

4NT here should show a ♦ fit , with longer ♣s , similar to the actual hand, though probably stronger.
Amazingly my pd held almost the same hand this week in a BBO match , and chose to double , reasoning that if I bid 4♠ he would correct to 5♦. This turned out to be a great success since I had 4432 with ♥KQJ9...

Full hand here :
http://www.bridgebas...username=mich-b

[quiddity]

weird, I would have assumed natural (especially at this vul).

[han]

If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is:

- RKC if Y is lower than X.

- a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X.

I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil!

[cherdano]

I would also use Han's rule.

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-January-20, 03:57, said:

If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is:

- RKC if Y is lower than X.

- a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X.

I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil!

Which two suits are shown by 1♣ (4♦) 4NT? And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits?

My rule [edited to correct transposition between majors and minors] would be

- RKC if Y is a minor

- a 2-suiter if Y is a major

That also covers 1♦ (4♦) and 1♥ (4♥), which are undefined in Not Han's Rule.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-January-20, 06:20

[gwnn]

And which two suits are shown by

1♣-4♦-4NT in

Andy's Alternative Adage?

It just might make sense to play that 4NT as natural. Or a good raise to 5♣

[cherdano]

gnasher, on 2011-January-20, 05:58, said:

And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits?

I can't answer your other question but this one seems easy. If I have 3 spades and a long minor I will bid 4♠ on the first auction. But if I have 3 hearts and a long minor I want to offer a choie on the second auction (assuming I have enough shape to compete to the 5-level).

[gnasher]

gwnn, on 2011-January-20, 06:02, said:

And which two suits are shown by

1♣-4♦-4NT in

Andy's Alternative Adage?

I got my majors and minors mixed up - I'll correct the original post.

[gnasher]

cherdano, on 2011-January-20, 06:06, said:

I can't answer your other question but this one seems easy. If I have 3 spades and a long minor I will bid 4♠ on the first auction. But if I have 3 hearts and a long minor I want to offer a choie on the second auction (assuming I have enough shape to compete to the 5-level).

True, but even after 1♠ (4♥) there are plenty of hands with both minors that don't want to risk a double. I think that's more likely than either RKC or natural, but maybe that's because I'm dealt fewer Keycard hands than most people.

I think we had a discussion about this sometime last year.

[mich-b]

han, on 2011-January-20, 03:57, said:

If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is:

- RKC if Y is lower than X.

- a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X.

I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil!

An alternative rule (simpler and imo a little better):
RKC if Y is a minor.
a 2 suiter if Y is a major.

[gwnn]

gnasher's rule is spreading like wildfire!

[han]

gnasher, on 2011-January-20, 05:58, said:

Which two suits are shown by 1♣ (4♦) 4NT?

I play that as RKC but I suppose you meant to ask about 1D - 4C. That's the exception to the rule.

Quote

And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits?

I never claimed that anything is right. I think the difference between the two auctions is obvious though, so I'll let you figure it out.

Quote

My rule [edited to correct transposition between majors and minors] would be

- RKC if Y is a minor

- a 2-suiter if Y is a major

That also covers 1♦ (4♦) and 1♥ (4♥), which are undefined in Not Han's Rule.

I sure hope my opponents aren't reading this, or they'll start overcalling 1H - 4H!

[gnasher]

han, on 2011-January-20, 10:48, said:

I play that [1♣-4♦;4NT] as RKC but I suppose you meant to ask about 1D - 4C. That's the exception to the rule.

No, I meant to ask about 1♣-4♦-4NT. Diamonds are Y, and clubs are X, so Y > X and the rule you originally posted would make it a two-suiter. Either that or I've completely lost my mind.

Quote

I sure hope my opponents aren't reading this, or they'll start overcalling 1H - 4H!

There's no harm in being prepared.

[han]

gnasher, on 2011-January-20, 11:14, said:

No, I meant to ask about 1♣-4♦-4NT.

Uh yes, it was I who lost his mind. But indeed, that's the exception.

[whereagles]

agree with Ben (all the way to the top)