[Phil]

---

This was from a MP tourney yesterday and we missed the good 6♠. While the play in 3N is pretty interesting after ♦K, ducked, I'd rather not get into the play issues.

How should the auction proceed after 2♠?

(Edit, no 2♠ does not promise 6)

Thanks

[jillybean]

1♠:2♦
2♠:2N
3♠:keycard

[phil_20686]

Hard to get this right when AQTxxx Ax Qx xxx

is close to hopeless on a club lead.

a continuation like
1s-2d
2s-3h
3s-4c* agrees spades at this point imo.
4h-4s
?

this bats the decision back to opener, and aught to get a decent decision. Especially if he is 6-3-3-1. 3H also suggests that you were not really that interested in playing in diamonds (and hence has spade tolerance), which is an issue if it goes 2N-3d-3s, its hard now to decide what strain you are playing into. I cannot imagine not bidding 2N as a waiting bid if I had a singleton spade and might want to play in diamonds. I might of course want to play in 3N.

[Bbradley62]

phil_20686, on 2011-November-24, 10:21, said:

Hard to get this right when AQTxxx Ax Qx xxx

is close to hopeless on a club lead.

"Close to hopeless"?
It looks to me like this needs a club ruff, and pitching a ♦ on ♥K after a successful ♥ finesse. Probably 40% or so?.

[Cyberyeti]

phil_20686, on 2011-November-24, 10:21, said:

Hard to get this right when AQTxxx Ax Qx xxx

is close to hopeless on a club lead.

Hopeless as in requires the ♥ Q onside so you can discard your losing ♦ and ruff a club. It's poor on a trump lead.

Are you playing 2♦ F1 or FG ? it makes a difference here.

Over an F1 2♦ (which is what I play in acol):

1♠-2♦
2♠ (5+♠/4+♣ or 6+♠)-3♥
3N-4♣(artificial, would have bid 3♣ last time with 0454, implied spade fit, likely to be Hx)
4♥(cue, 6th spade)-?

So you know partner has 6 spades, the A♥, no K♦ and a club stop, if it's the K then the slam is probably fine, if it's the Q, it may not be good, but may well still be 50% in that it only goes off if the opening leader doesn't have the K because if he doesn't lead one, the trick walks on the red suit winners.

I think it just continues 4N-5♠-6♠.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Even if 2S does not guarantee 6 cards, why not support with K J , and you might get a courtesy cue of 4C! , which would take the slam beyond "hopeless":

1S - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )
2S - 3S
4C! - 4D!
4H! - 4NT
5S ( 2 + sQ )- 5NT
6C ( cK, so 4C! cue was not shortness ) - 6D ( 2nd K-ask )
6S ( no more K's ) - pass

[ still no guarantee if opener has 3 small ♦ ].

[aguahombre]

Having to bid spades 3 times to show six of them is not helpful to us; it might be fine for other styles. Nevertheless, if North rebids a mark-time 2N/2S, and South rebids 3S, North will come alive with 4C cue waking opener that his fine controls are worth cooperating for slam. The exact continuations would be according to partnership taste.

North's hand is interested in slam if opener has some nice controls and six spades.
North is not interested in slam if opener had to make the default 2S rebid because 2NT or a high reverse were inappropriate for his hand.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2011-November-24, 09:55, said:

1♠:2♦
2♠:2N
3♠:keycard

I don't think that keycard tells you what you need to know....on this hand, it comes close and indeed you'd be comfortable bidding slam after his response, but on other hands, not so much. AQxxxx Axx xx Jx wouldn't be a good slam, for example.

N is certainly interested in slamming, but he can and should indicate that without the committal and frequently unhelpful keycard. Over 3♠, bid 4♣.

This has to be a cuebid in support of spades...we're not suddenly looking for a club fit

Opener has a good hand in context...lots of controls, good trump suit, so has an easy 4♥, announcing a non-minimum with, given responder's possession of the ♥K, the ♥A.

Now responder can keycard, since opener shouldn't be co-operating with true minimum.

This approach is based on the idea that cuebids below game are not mandatory.....when one partner makes such a cuebid, the other only cues in response if he is at least somewhat interested in slam....has a useful or non-minimum hand within the context of the auction to date.

On the given hand, I think that opener has a tough call over 2N. The side stoppers and flattish shape suggest 3N.....bidding 3♠ will sometimes result in reaching the inferior (at mps) game of 4♠.

To some degree this is just bad luck. Those who play that 2♠ promises 6 can point to this hand as evidence in their favour....and it is....it just isn't enough to persuade me that that approach is best.

And N has exactly the wrong hand values for the method....he is very close to raising 3N to 4♠ (I think 4♠ shows the values for 4N, invitational, with willingness to play spades), but I can understand why he would chose to pass 3N....opposite a 5323 minimum, why risk playing 4N?

[wank]

1s - 2d
2s - 2n
3n - 4c
4h - 4s
5c - 6s

[Fluffy]

I agree with jilly, aguahombre and mikeh on the start, 1♠-2♦-2♠-2NT-3♠-4♣, anything else doens´t make much sense to me. Then I´d follow up mikeh route.

[kgr]

What contact do you want to be in when openers minors are reversed and how will the bidding go?
AQTxxx
A9
Kxx
xx

[Cyberyeti]

kgr, on 2011-November-25, 09:28, said:

What contact do you want to be in when openers minors are reversed and how will the bidding go?
AQTxxx
A9
Kxx
xx

6♦ isn't bad.

1♠-2♦
2♠-3♥
4♦ etc

[Bbradley62]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-November-25, 10:12, said:

kgr, on 2011-November-25, 09:28, said:

What contact do you want to be in when openers minors are reversed and how will the bidding go?
AQTxxx
A9
Kxx
xx

6♦ isn't bad.

1♠-2♦
2♠-3♥
4♦ etc

So, you'd rather play in an 8-card minor (to AKT9) than an 8-card major (to AKQJT)?

[kenrexford]

I hate the style where 2♠ by Opener does not show 6, but I could live with that if the rest of the auction made sense (to me). What I don't understand is why the auctions so far have seemed senseless.

First, I would imagine that if 2NT is a wark-time auction, then Opener's 3♠ call should set trumps (except perhaps if 3NT is playable). Thus, any call (at least above 3NT) should be a cue. So, assuming that:

1♠-2♦
2♠-2NT
3♠-4♣(cue)
4♥(cue)

But, it seems even better for Opener to unwind even more cheaply after a 2NT "waiting" type of call, assuming this start. For instance, in the given auction, after 2NT, it might make sense to play transfer rebids:

3♣ = diamond agreement. Responder can confirm by bidding 3♦ (probe otherwise)?. (Same method if Responder's minor is clubs; 3♣ agrees, 3♦ confirms.)
3♦ = 6♠/4♥. Responder can confirm either by bidding either.
3♥ = Six spades; accept to confirm.
3♠ = 7 spades?

[Cyberyeti]

Bbradley62, on 2011-November-25, 10:32, said:

So, you'd rather play in an 8-card minor (to AKT9) than an 8-card major (to AKQJT)?

In this case yes, think about the play on a club lead, 6♠ is on the heart finesse or a diamond miracle and they don't combine that well. 6♦ merely needs a 3-2 diamond break and the person with 3 to follow to 2 spades. You can also survive some 4-1 diamond breaks where the diamonds are in front of the long hand.

[cherdano]

I realize that 2N is the "correct" rebid as responder, but I think the practical bid is 3N. Yes this shows a balanced rather than a semi-balanced hand, and our hand is very suitable for a suit contract, but other than that it expresses our values very precisely, and we will usually get to the right strain.

[Fluffy]

cherdano, on 2011-November-25, 16:52, said:

I realize that 2N is the "correct" rebid as responder, but I think the practical bid is 3N. Yes this shows a balanced rather than a semi-balanced hand, and our hand is very suitable for a suit contract, but other than that it expresses our values very precisely, and we will usually get to the right strain.

I can´t recall last time I rebid 3NT with a balanced hand as responder on this auction. I think I only do it now with singleton spade, I have some problems limiting ranges and that later, but I don´t miss my 6-2 fits in the major nor my 5-3 in the minor either.

[gnasher]

kenrexford, on 2011-November-25, 14:30, said:

But, it seems even better for Opener to unwind even more cheaply after a 2NT "waiting" type of call, assuming this start. For instance, in the given auction, after 2NT, it might make sense to play transfer rebids:

3♣ = diamond agreement. Responder can confirm by bidding 3♦ (probe otherwise)?. (Same method if Responder's minor is clubs; 3♣ agrees, 3♦ confirms.)
3♦ = 6♠/4♥. Responder can confirm either by bidding either.
3♥ = Six spades; accept to confirm.
3♠ = 7 spades?

Don't you think opener might need a way to show clubs?

[kenrexford]

gnasher, on 2011-November-25, 19:02, said:

Don't you think opener might need a way to show clubs?

I thought about that, especially with an approach where 2♠ is often bid with five BECAUSE of the desire to not make a weak high-reverse. But, the idea of being able to keep auctions low seems incredibly valuable. Maybe this means that 3♠ should show clubs. Or, maybe a Smolen style rebid structure works (3♥ as sixth spade; 3♠ as 6♠/4♥ and weak).

I'm just brainstorming, as I dislike the approach generally.

[han]

cherdano, on 2011-November-25, 16:52, said:

I realize that 2N is the "correct" rebid as responder, but I think the practical bid is 3N. Yes this shows a balanced rather than a semi-balanced hand, and our hand is very suitable for a suit contract, but other than that it expresses our values very precisely, and we will usually get to the right strain.

I don't think it expresses our values precisely. The two honors in spades, the doubleton, the aces, the hand is too useful for opener. I think that responders hand is more suitable for asking than for showing.

This thread reminds me of the hand from the Bermuda Bowl finals, where Brink-Drijver bid to a good 6D and Bathurst-Zagorin bid to 3NT. If you want to bid slams in 2/1 auctions well, I think you need more definition than "2/1 is GF, follow-ups are natural".