[661_Pete]

This hand cropped up today. E-W Vul; Dealer East (me):

---

As you can see 7♠ is cold, provided neither spades nor diamonds break 4-0. Which in my view is fair enough odds. We languished in 4♠ making 7 - no table reached 7 though two reached 6.

Suggestions for the bidding? Acol (for my benefit) or non-Acol (for the rest). I'm thinking 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♠ - 4♦(cue) - 4♥(cue) - 4♠ - 5♣(cue) - 5NT(GSF) - 7♠ but that probably won't chime with some modern bidding systems. Or it may not be the correct way.

Just curious. Don't often get such a splendid pair of hands.

[ahydra]

1D-1S; 3H (splinter) is a good way to start. 3H is a splinter since 2H is a forcing reverse.

After that the key is for East to show he has a heart VOID, not a singleton. From there simple RKCB gets the job done as West finds out about SAQ, CA and DK, thus counting 13 tricks in the form of two heart ruffs, 5 spades, 5 diamonds and the CA. If you play void splinters that's one easy way to get there, otherwise you might have a response such as 5NT to 4NT showing a void, or (if not playing LTTC) East might be able to cue 4H which should show specifically a void as West already knows he has a control of some sort.

So for example:
1D-1S
3H-4D
4H-4NT
5S-5NT
6D-7S

(6D = shows the king of diamonds)

Edit: all very well and good, but in practice surely South is going to overcall 1H and North will raise to 4H... then what? Is East worth 5H? (Probably.) What can West do next?

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Your cue bidding sequence is a bit odd in the modern cue anything style, 4♦ would deny a club cue so 4♥ should show one, now if E cues 5♦ rather than 5♣, and over 5♠ he bids either 5N or 6♥ this should lead to 7♠.

In Ahydra's sequence we respond 6♥ to 4N (2+Q+♥void) and W can count a likely 13 tricks.

[Kaitlyn S]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-26, 14:25, said:

I'm thinking 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♠ - 4♦(cue) - 4♥(cue) - 4♠ - 5♣(cue) - 5NT(GSF) - 7♠

The problem with this auction is that 3S isn't forcing for most pairs. You have a hand that only invited game going past game to make a control bid.

With a 5-loser hand (4.5 when adjusted for aces/queens), you want to be in game opposite a 1S response. (Point counters can count 5 for the void.) Assuming the opponents don't compete, the auction starts 1D-1S-4S. Note that East didn't start 2NT so East is likely (no guarantees here) to have an unbalanced hand with long diamonds and shortness somewhere - anywhere is good for West. Given that most East can have in spades and diamonds is the S-AQJ and the D-KJ, East needs at least 8 points in the other suits, counting at least 3 for a singleton. It's not that likely that East has an uncontrolled suit here so West can bid Old Black, knowing that East virtually has to have good diamonds. East admits to two aces and West figures that all four suits have second round control and bids 6S. Not ideal but a tie for top with 2 other pairs for a pair that has no methods is quite reasonable. If the pair can show 2 aces and a void over Blackwood, West can count five spades, at least five diamonds, the ace, and two ruffs to make 13 tricks. While it's possible to construct a hand that East could have that would jump to 4S without the SQ, it's not that likely, and 2-2 spades give you the grand. However, it sounds like bidding the small slam is sufficient in the field you played in and I might not want to gamble on the SQ. If only two pairs reached small slam, it's unlikely that any pairs can show the void and the SQ.

Let's say West decides to make a control bid of 5D instead of bidding Old Black. Hopefully East won't think West psyched 1S , yes that did happen to me once. Now, East bids 5H, and West bids 5S with no club control. East bids 6C - has to be a first round control else East would just bid 6S. Now it requires a little guesswork. I don't think West can bid seven yet (still that SQ issue and West doesn't know about the sixth diamond.) However, an expert West might bid 6D, and West can hardly do that without the SK and either the D-AQ or D-Ax and extras elsewhere, so East can take a pop at 7S. For pairs playing a style of control bidding where control bids don't promise first round controls, this is just about impossible.

I've bid this hand without splinters for a reason. If you play splinters, you probably have enough other agreements that you already know how your pair would reach a grand slam (or at least a slam.) Since I don't know what your agreements are, and it's different for each pair, it would be pompous of me to suggest an auction that uses a particular set of agreements and call it "standard". I've shown that pairs with no agreements should get to a small slam and if the pair guesses well (I'm not going to say "uses good judgment" because I think a couple of the calls are guesses), they could bid the grand. This is with no conventions other than simple Blackwood (to get to 6) or control bidding (to get to 6 and possibly 7 with inspired guessing.)

Now, it could start 1D (1H) 1S (4H). Since West could have a random 6-count, I think 4S is enough with East but East has shown extras. Unfortunately, East might have pushed to bid 4S under pressure, so West doesn't have a clue whether East has a maximum or not. However, it's pretty likely that East has at most one heart and no wasted high cards in hearts, so it's not unreasonable for West to bid 5D thinking that 5S probably isn't too likely to go down if partner has good spades and diamonds and some control in clubs. What can partner have that justifies bidding 4S over 4H? A minimum with a singleton heart isn't enough, regardless of that old saw "always bid 4S over 4H." East will bid 5H, West will bid 5S (no club control), East will bid 6C (has to be a first round control else East would just bid 6S), West probably will bid 6S but if West trots out 6D, East will probably bid the grand. Again, no methods.

[Fluffy]

An easy way is this:

1♦-1♠
4♥-5♦
5♥-5NT

4♥ = splinter
5♦ = cuebid
5♥ = void (implies club control)
5NT = keycard blackwood

Obviously 5NT as keycard blackwood is not popular, but I am sure there are some gadgets that allow for East to show void below 4♠ as well and use 4NT instead.

Note that west has an easy time counting 5♠, 2♥, 5♦, 1♣.

Also note that NS on most tables will make a lot of noise.

[rmnka447]

I think a splinter is key to finding a slam on this hand. It does a number of things. It should confirm ♠ with 4 trumps, it shows ♥ shortness, it should show a good hand for ♠ as it forces to game, and it implies a real ♦ suit. (If opener has a void or singleton in ♥, it's impossible to be opening a 3 card ♦ suit)

After the splinter, although responder can see some loss of value in ♥, it should be apparent that a double fit exists in ♦ and ♠. With the appropriate fit and side suit controls, slam may be possible with losers potentially discarded on ♦ long suit tricks. While responder can't necessarily force to slam, there's enough to raise the possibility with opener and see what happens.

Unfortunately if 4 ♥ is the splinter, it gets hard to go past that. But with 2 ♥ available as a reverse, 3 ♥ as a splinter and game force is useful. After a 3 ♥ splinter, 3 ♠ becomes a waiting bid, suggesting some slam interest, allowing opener to start showing controls cheaply (especially a critical ♣ control).

1 ♦ - 1 ♠
3 ♥ - 3 ♠
4 ♣ - 4 ♦
4 ♥ - 4 NT
6 ♦ (void, even KC, ♦ K)
- 6 ♥ (queen ask)
7 ♠

[mike777]

tough hand.

I think the posted auctions are silly.

bidding 6 is easy....bidding 7 is at the very least tough.


I find bidding a 25-26 hcp grand tough but possible....posters seem to think easy...silly.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2016-September-26, 23:47, said:

tough hand.

I think the posted auctions are silly.

bidding 6 is easy....bidding 7 is at the very least tough.


I find bidding a 25-26 hcp grand tough but possible....posters seem to think easy...silly.

If E knows W has ♠ Kxxxx/♦ AQx that is pretty much all he needs to know.

If W knows E has ♠AQxx/♥none/♦Kxxxx/♣A he knows the grand is playable and if E bids aggressively, he knows there's a sixth diamond or another high club card there.

It's not one where you need to show an awful lot and only one side suit Q matters, so not the most difficult grand to bid.

[Caitlynne]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-26, 14:25, said:

This hand cropped up today. E-W Vul; Dealer East (me):

---

As you can see 7♠ is cold, provided neither spades nor diamonds break 4-0. Which in my view is fair enough odds. We languished in 4♠ making 7 - no table reached 7 though two reached 6.

Suggestions for the bidding? Acol (for my benefit) or non-Acol (for the rest). I'm thinking 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♠ - 4♦(cue) - 4♥(cue) - 4♠ - 5♣(cue) - 5NT(GSF) - 7♠ but that probably won't chime with some modern bidding systems. Or it may not be the correct way.

Just curious. Don't often get such a splendid pair of hands.

[aawk]

If you play a natrual system you need a lot of (specific) agreements to reach 7s.

1d-1s
3h-4d
4h-4nt
5s-5nt
6d-7s

3h is a splinter showing a fit in s with a maximum holding a 4144, 4153, 4054, 4162, 4063 or m516x pattern
4d cue in d no cue in c
4h showing the splinter to be a void and a cue in c and now showing a 4054, 4063 or m506x pattern
4nt roman key cards
5s showing 2 keycards with Q of s
5nt all keycards on board asking for kings
6d showing K of d or both K in h and c
7s due to the void in h east must have K of d

Any other bidding sequance will most likely lead to 6s.

For east to bid 7s west must hold the K of s, AQ(+) in d and i do not think it is possible for east to get all that information.

For west to bid 7s east must hold the specific hand he or she had and i do not see another way to get all the needed information.

So reaching 6s would be ok and leave 7s to the experts.

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction unless E got hyper aggressive would be: (1♦-1♠-3♥ is not a splinter for us and the E hand is prob not quite good enough for 1♦-1♠-4♥ optional voidwood)

1♦-1♠
3♠-4♦
5♥(voidwood)-6♣(2 without Q)
6♦(I have K ♦, bid 7 with 3rd round control)-7♠

[miamijd]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-26, 14:25, said:

This hand cropped up today. E-W Vul; Dealer East (me):

---

As you can see 7♠ is cold, provided neither spades nor diamonds break 4-0. Which in my view is fair enough odds. We languished in 4♠ making 7 - no table reached 7 though two reached 6.

Suggestions for the bidding? Acol (for my benefit) or non-Acol (for the rest). I'm thinking 1♦ - 1♠ - 3♠ - 4♦(cue) - 4♥(cue) - 4♠ - 5♣(cue) - 5NT(GSF) - 7♠ but that probably won't chime with some modern bidding systems. Or it may not be the correct way.

Just curious. Don't often get such a splendid pair of hands.

The big culprit in your auction was opener's 3S rebid. That is merely an invite. Opposite an invite, responder isn't strong enough to try for slam, so you will languish in 4S. I suspect a number of pairs took that approach.

At his second turn, opener needs to force a game. It won't always make, but you want to be in game with this hand opposite as little as Kxxxx xxx Qx xxx, so you need to make a forcing bid. 3H, if that is a splinter in your system (it ought to be, as 2H would be a reverse) seems like the best bid here, as your diamonds aren't good enough for a 4D call (that shows 4+ spades and a good 6+ diamond suit).

After 3H, something like the following ought to do the trick:

-- 1D
1S 3H(1)
3NT(2) 4C(3)
4D(4) 5H(5)
6C(6) 6D(7)
7S(8)

(1) splinter
(2) serious slam try
(3) cue
(4) cue
(5) exclusion key card
(6) 2 no Q (not counting Ah)
(7) Grand try
(8) Qd seems to be the missing card

[Fluffy]

To miami: I think it is a serious error for East to bid 5♥ when he can bid 4♥ instead and describe his hand accurately, the basic principle to never ask when you can show instead applies.

I see a lot of people playing 3♥ as "splinter", but I play it as mini-splinter, is 3♥ game forcing for you?

[661_Pete]

miamijd, on 2016-September-27, 10:41, said:

The big culprit in your auction was opener's 3S rebid. That is merely an invite. Opposite an invite, responder isn't strong enough to try for slam, so you will languish in 4S. I suspect a number of pairs took that approach.

Quite so - that's exactly what happened to us. And I was East, and I did indeed bid 3♠ which West raised to 4. So you can blame me!

In the OP, I was originally going to say that 7♦ is on too - but then I realised it isn't. Declarer can park one club loser on the long spade, but not the other.

[Phil]

Fluffy, on 2016-September-27, 12:19, said:

To miami: I think it is a serious error for East to bid 5♥ when he can bid 4♥ instead and describe his hand accurately, the basic principle to never ask when you can show instead applies.

I see a lot of people playing 3♥ as "splinter", but I play it as mini-splinter, is 3♥ game forcing for you?

Pretty common these days to play 3H as either a 3 level or 5 level splinter.

[miamijd]

Fluffy, on 2016-September-27, 12:19, said:

To miami: I think it is a serious error for East to bid 5♥ when he can bid 4♥ instead and describe his hand accurately, the basic principle to never ask when you can show instead applies.

I see a lot of people playing 3♥ as "splinter", but I play it as mini-splinter, is 3♥ game forcing for you?

Well, if you play 4H as showing a void, then that would be a good bid, yes. But after agreeing spades, I think most experts would play 4H as "Last Train," which isn't what you want here.

Yes, 3H is a game force for me. I don't like using 4H as a GF splinter, b/c then there is no room to explore controls without going to the 5-level, which is awful. But even if you play it as not a GF, it ought to be invite or better, not simply an invite. Now partner can at least bid 4D over 3H to show a hand that's better than just a simple accept (where he would bid 4S), but not good enough for a serious 3NT bid opposite an invite. Now with clubs and hearts locked up and a fine hand, you can use exclusion as before (or bid 4H if that's not Last Train for you).

If you don't play Last Train, you should consider doing so. Makes slam exploration a lot easier.

Cheers,
Mike

[Zelandakh]

1♦ - 1♠; 4♥ - 5♦; 5♥ - 6♦; 7♠ seems reasonable in Acol even without the most exact agreements. Even though getting to the grand is possible, I think stopping in a small slam is perfectly ok on these hands. Languishing in game on the other hand would be somewhat disappointing.

[msjennifer]

As Caitlynne has punted out,the bidding will go 1D-1H-1S-4H,Shutters unless both partners hands are visible as Soth is ceraijy going to bid 5H.

[Cyberyeti]

With the hands as they are, 4♠+3 is going to score better than 7♥x so you'd better bid 7♠

[hnsl]

Using Precision:

1♣¹ - 1♠²
2♦³ - 2NT⁴
3♦⁵ - 4♦⁶
4♠⁷ - 5♦⁸
7♠⁹

1 - 16+ HCP or a very favorable distribution
2 - 8+ HCP, 5+ spades, forcing to game
3 - 5+ diamonds, recommended as trump suit and asking for support (alfa)
4 - positive answer: better than Qxx support and no more than 3 controls (A=2, K=1)
5 - asking for top honors in the trump suit (still diamonds)
6 - two top honors, should be Ace and Queen since East holds the King
7 - asking for controls in spades (epsilon)
8 - second round control, should be King since West has shown spade suit
9 - holding first round control in all suits, counting 5 spades + 6 diamonds + 1 club + 1 heart ruff