[awm]

The 3C sequence handles the following:

Balanced hands where I have a 3M and no 5M. If slam interested, not both minors. Continuations are pretty normal puppet (3M shows four on the other major and implies three in the bid major; 4m is natural five card suit and slam interest, 3nt is just to play). After 1nt-3c-3d-3M-3nt bidding 4m is natural slam interest (3424 since balanced).

Other balanced hands that want to look for a fit (and have no 5M) start 2C. After openers rebid the 3C continuation always shows slam interest, always balanced, and always denies a four card fit for openers major (with a fit and slam interest, 3OM sets the suit). After opener bids 3d (denying a five card suit) responder has:

1. 3M shows a four card major, so 24 (34 would start with puppet). If opener showed a major then responder has the other major; in any case probably best to use 3M to indicate the longer minor (3H=clubs and 3S=diamonds).
2. 4m shows a five card minor. But this won’t have a 3M (would start puppet) or a 4M (would bid 3M here) so it’s 2245.
3. This leaves (23)44. That hand can also start with puppet! The issue is that puppet followed by 3nt is not at all forward going, so we can start 2c...3c...3nt to show slam interest.

It’s probably simpler to say 2c...3c just denies exactly 3M and so away with the (23)44 slam exception but that does force you to bid past 3nt in that hand after puppet.

[straube]

ok. I'm following now. Thanks.

1N-2C, 2D-3D must still be a club splinter.


Is this what you have or something different?

1N-2C, 2D-2H, 2S-

2N-4S/5H invitational
3C-(hearts)
.....3D-relays
...........3H-4513
...........3S-4531
...........3N-4522
...........4C-4612
...........4D-4621
3D-4S/6H invitational
3H-5413
3S-5431
3N-5422
4C-6412
4D-6421
4H-4S6H, to play
4S-6S4H, to play

[awm]

Technically we use 1nt-2c-2d-3d as diamond splinter with 1nt-3d direct being club splinter.

What we do over 1nt-2c-2d-2h-2s is a little different, in that we treat it more like a splinter sequence than a relay sequence. So:

3c = short diamonds
... 3d = pure diamond holding for slam
... 3M = cheapest 3-card major
... 3nt to play
... 4c = 5+clubs not good diamonds
3d = short clubs
... 3M = cheapest 3-card major
... 3nt to play
... 4c = pure club holding for slam
... 4d = 5+diamonds not good clubs
3h = 46 invite
3s = 4522
3nt = 5422 not forcing
4m = shortness with 6s,4h

[straube]

1N-3D is a club splinter and then suits are bid up the line?

1N-3H must guarantee 4 hearts and spade shortness since you prefer your 3S rebid to deny wastage and have other avenues for 3-1-(54).
Similarly 1N-3S must guarantee 4 spades and heart shortness?

[awm]

straube, on 2018-May-24, 10:19, said:

1N-3D is a club splinter and then suits are bid up the line?

1N-3H must guarantee 4 hearts and spade shortness since you prefer your 3S rebid to deny wastage and have other avenues for 3-1-(54).
Similarly 1N-3S must guarantee 4 spades and heart shortness?

Yes that’s all right.

[straube]

How are 1N-2C, 2D-3D (short diamonds) and 1N-2C, 2D-2H, 2S-3C (short diamonds) different from each other?

I'm guessing that the first would be patterns such as 4315 while the second might be 5404 but if that's right, how are the follow-ups different?

The second is interested in fragments but the first is interested in what?

[straube]

I'm wondering if one can relay after learning of a 5/5 hand.

Let's say 3D confirms 5m/5m

.....3N-no interest
.....3S-some interest
.....3H-relays
..........3S-higher
..........3N-even
..........4C-5521
..........4D-5530
..........4H-5620
...............4S-QP ask
....................4N-6 or 7?
....................5C-8
....................etc

Or 3S confirms say 5H/5C (and fit)
.....4H-no interest
.....4m-some interest
.....3N-relays
..........4C-higher
..........4D-even
..........4H-5521
..........4S-5530
..........4N-5620
...............5C-QP ask
....................5D-6 or 7
....................5H-8
....................etc

I chose two difficult examples deliberately. Most of the time it's easier.

In your notes, I think you say that you usually respond with 2S when holding both majors because the continuations are better.
I'm thinking of doing that and then a "reverse" would show 4522

[awm]

1nt-2c-2x-3d denies a five card major. It’s 3-4 each major and 4+club and 0-1 diamond. Basically the same as 1nt-3d but with short diamonds instead of clubs.

1nt-2c-2d-2h-2s-3c has a five card major. It’s (45) or 55 majors with 0-1 diamonds. So (45)13, (45)04, 5512, 5503.

Openers next call is a bit different too — over 1nt-2c-2d-3d he’s bidding 3nt unless his diamond holding is unsuitable. So 3M is a three card holding with bad diamonds. Over the slower sequence opener will almost always bid a 3M because there can be 5-3 fit (rare hands with loads of diamonds can try 3nt of course, but usually a 3nt bid directly over the 3c call is 2-2 in the majors).

[awm]

I’m not sure what’s going on in your relay example. Responder has a wide range and is often just looking for the best game. Opener is limited and has also indicated degree of fit. It seems like responder should be the one deciding whether to sign off or pattern out?

[straube]

awm, on 2018-May-25, 00:13, said:

I’m not sure what’s going on in your relay example. Responder has a wide range and is often just looking for the best game. Opener is limited and has also indicated degree of fit. It seems like responder should be the one deciding whether to sign off or pattern out?

Well, if responder can envision the 5-level and opener fits well, isn't 6 a good possibility? I gave opener other options to show some or no interest. Btw, responder can lie about shape with a truly bad hand? Or can give QPs first and then full shape?

How would you continue?

[awm]

I think responder will often be aggressive here with 5-5 shape, knowing that game will be good if opener fits the major and hoping for the best otherwise. Often 5m is a stretch and 6m not really in the picture.

I’d be concerned with a method where opener takes control and gets too high before even finding out responders strength. Our method is for opener to show/deny fit and then responder can cue or keycard. We don’t bother trying to show exact cards when we’re already two steps up from normal and opener is limited and responder is not.

[straube]

I still rather like

3S-3N (5/5, ask)
4C not interested in slam
4D+ QPs at some base that makes sense. What would that be?


What would you think of

1N-2S
2N-
.....4C-2245
.....4D-2254
.....4H-2344
.....4S-3244

It's your idea but places it after the size ask instead of stayman which seems to me a more natural place for it. One gets size information vs 4-cd major information and it takes fewer bids.

Let's say you liked this. How then would you continue with 1N-2C, 2D-3C and 1N-2C, 3M? Same?

[straube]

When I started this thread, I was thinking of blending my own structure with IMprecision. Both use immediate splinters (and I'd recommend them to Kungsgeten because they handle so many hand patterns) but I think I made a bad tradeoff in trying to separate those that could be 5-3 in the minors from those that promised 4-4 or better. Doing that cost me much of the 1N-2C, 2X-3L rebids. Anyway, I really liked IMprecision's 1N-2C, 2X-3C re-ask.

I also wanted Jacoby transfers to guarantee 5 but I've found that IMprecision's grouping most of the M/M in 2C and much of the M/m in transfers worked better.
I really like Puppet Stayman to go along with Stayman; it's useful for balanced hands that want to bid quickly to the best game while minimizing interference.
Kind of liked 2N to be Puppet Stayman, but that bid is just too expensive. I'm pretty excited about this tweak of 1N-3C to handle balanced hands with a 3-cd major. Thanks, Adam, for sharing your no trump structure. Much better than what I had in mind. I think I have most of my questions answered but I'll probably come up with a question or two on continuations.

[straube]

Would you mind explaining a bit about your cue bid continuations? I'm wondering if and how you enter a RKC auction. Do you try to engineer for responder to do the asking?

After 1N-2N, 3C-3N sets clubs as trump and asks for cue bids. How would this go here? Wondering, for example, what 4C itself would mean.

Also, for the 5/5s, 1N-2D, 2H-3D, 3H-3S responder is showing a 5H/5D and a 5-3 fit has been established. How would you continue here? I assume 4C would be the club ace but not sure what 3N would be. Even though a major suit has been found, do you try to show whether you have a double fit or not? Can you winde up in 6D here? What would 4D by opener show? Would 4S by either hand be RKC or would it be a spade control?

[awm]

We have the following relevant general agreements:

1. 4d is kickback when clubs agreed
2. In a gf with clubs, 4c is a bad hand

So in this auction 4c is a bad slam hand, 4d is keycard, 4M is cuebid, 4nt is diamond cue.

After 1nt-2D-2h-3d, 3h shows three hearts and 3s sets hearts as trump (5-5). At this point we play cuebids, 3nt is a spade cue. Note that responder can bid 4h over 3h with no interest.

[straube]

awm, on 2018-May-27, 09:45, said:

Note that responder can bid 4h over 3h with no interest.

I feel like an idiot. I missed that. This just makes me more keen on using 3N as a relay. I've been looking at hands and without knowing full shape, it's just very hard to make the right decision. So I know you're skeptical (at best) of this, but if you were to use 3N as a relay, what base of QPs would you guess responder should have? I'm thinking 7.

[awm]

straube, on 2018-May-27, 10:08, said:

I feel like an idiot. I missed that. This just makes me more keen on using 3N as a relay. I've been looking at hands and without knowing full shape, it's just very hard to make the right decision. So I know you're skeptical (at best) of this, but if you were to use 3N as a relay, what base of QPs would you guess responder should have? I'm thinking 7.

You have a very different picture of these hands than I do. I'd think any of the below would qualify:

KQxxx
xx
KJTxx
x

AKJxx
xx
JTxxx
x

KQJxx
xx
Axxxx
x

KQJxx
Qx
Qxxxx
x

All of those come in under 7 RP. They also have the property that slam is pretty unlikely even if partner has well-fitting cards.

[straube]

Aren’t we agreeing though? Those hands would just sign off in 4M after hearing opener has 3 because slam is unlikely even if opener had good fitting cards. At some point (I put forward 7 but maybe it is more or less) it is worthwhile to explore. At the point of 3S there is just room enough to find shape and QPs before getting too high. This depends of course on establishing a suitable base number of QPs ahead of time.
Definitely not room for PCB unless maybe a grand is on.

[straube]

I noticed your notes suggest that with 4S/4H opener can reply either major (to Stayman) but usually chooses spades because the continuations are easier. Curious why. Anyway, I've written it so that 4S/4H replies 2S and 4S/5H replies 2H. Like that?

Your Puppet Stayman division is yielding a lot of good things.

I've written it so that 2C promises one or both 4-cd majors (unless maybe something like 3316? not sure that qualifies), 3C promises a 3-cd major and no 5-cd major and 2S handles slam invites of 3244 and 5m4m22. So then...

2C-2S,
.....3C-(shows 4 hearts, slam invite)
..........3D-no fit
...............3H-2434
...............3S-2443
...............4C-2425
...............4D-2452
..........3H-fit (up a tempo)
..........4H-fit, unsuitable for slam?
2C-2H
.....3C-(shows 4 spades, slam invite)
..........3D-no fit
..........3H-vacant, if 5H332 then not fitting opposite 42xy)
..........3S-4522 (fit)
..........4S-4522, unsuitable for slam

Hm. 2C-2M, 3N is kind of vacant if 3C is just GF with 4OM.

Also using

2C-2D
.....3C-shows 4 hearts
.....3D-diamond short
.....3H-4234
.....3S-4243
.....4C-4225
.....4D-4252

I think this clarifies which suits are in focus. For example if it goes...

2C-2S (Stayman, 4S)
3C-3D (4H, no fit)
4D-4H (2452, ?)

The 4H bid can be RKC since diamonds are the only possible fit.

[awm]

There are two reasons we prefer to respond in spades to stayman when holding both majors.

1. Responder bids stayman with invites including five spades and not four hearts (but not the other way around). This means he’s more likely to have spades, and allows us to have much lower information auctions on such hands (concealing both openers hearts and responders invitational nature and fifth spade by bidding 1nt-2c-2s-4s instead of 1nt-2c-2h-2s-4s).
2. Better slam auctions with the 3c relay. In particular suppose opener bids the major responder doesn’t have. If we bid hearts first we get 1nt-2c-2h-3c-3s but now 4m is a five card minor and 3nt is to play so we need to use 4h as slam try spades and have no space to cuebid. Compare to 1nt-2c-2s-3c-3h where we have 3s available to agree hearts and start cuebids.