[campboy]

Blue Uriah, on Apr 20 2010, 10:17 PM, said:

campboy, on Apr 20 2010, 01:06 AM, said:

Obviously there is a limit to what the EBU can do in that regard without losing money, but when it costs nothing we should be (as they tell us on the TD course) happy to help.

It sounds like you're arguing in favour of downloading free music, buying pirate DVDs or not paying your TV license. Once the content is produced, it costs nothing to make one additional copy so what harm can it do?

I do not advocate any of those things.

There are two important differences here.

Firstly I am arguing that the EBU should make the OB freely available, but if they choose not to, that is their right and I would not approve of people making unauthorised copies.

Secondly, the companies which produce DVDs and CDs are profit-driven businesses; there is no reason why they should wish to benefit anyone outside of their customer base. On the other hand, "The English Bridge Union Limited (EBU) is a membership-funded organisation committed to promoting the game of duplicate bridge."

[Blue Uriah]

Sorry, just that when you used the phrase 'it costs nothing' you sounded very much like people who do those things I mentioned earlier. The Orange Book doesn't cost nothing and the 1000th copy being free doesn't change the fact that the 1st copy involved a lot of hard work - work which was paid for ultimately by the EBU members.

[paulg]

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

Paul

[jeremy69]

Quote

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

Both BGB for the Gold Cup/Silver Plate and the Welsh Bridge Union in general use the Orange Book in its entirety and no action will be taken by the L&E to make either of their collective lives more difficult.

[Vampyr]

Blue Uriah, on Apr 20 2010, 11:28 PM, said:

the 1st copy involved a lot of hard work - work which was paid for ultimately by the EBU members.

I suppose it was paid for in a sense... the work is, after all, undertaken by volunteers.

[Vampyr]

jeremy69, on May 11 2010, 08:13 PM, said:

Quote

I am told that the EBU has made assurances to Bridge Great Britain that its system regulations will remain publicly available so that they may be used as the basis of regulation for the British Gold Cup.

I assume that this means that the Orange Book, or at least a major part of it, will not be put on a members-only area of the EBU web site.

Both BGB for the Gold Cup/Silver Plate and the Welsh Bridge Union in general use the Orange Book in its entirety and no action will be taken by the L&E to make either of their collective lives more difficult.

The Orange Book also needs to be available for foreigners and English people who are not yet EBU members who are considering entering a congress. I am sure that the board was never considering keeping the OB concealed from non-members.

[jallerton]

gordontd, on Apr 19 2010, 12:32 AM, said:

jallerton, on Apr 18 2010, 11:43 PM, said:

Later, I walked past the TD's table and spotted a hard copy of the White Book.  Had the TD invested a couple of ink cartridges in printing out the recently introduced 2010 White Book?  No, of course not.

Actually I did precisely that... but at 470 pages of A4 it's much too bulky to carry around, so I've left it at the club and intend to rely on the online version on my iPhone.

Section 121.7 of the EBU White Book still requires EBU TDs to have access to a (presumably up-to-date version of) the White Book itself.

Bad news for diligent TDs such as Gordon: your EBU White Book is already out of date! According to the EBU website, the White Book (published April 2010) was amended again in August 2010.

Does anyone know what changes were made between the April and August versions?

[RMB1]

David does.

I downloaded a copy from the EBU website at Brighton but David said it was not the latest version.

There is a change relating to tournament organisers and (affiliated) EBU clubs.

I have felt forced to drag around my laptop to all EBU events so I can refer to the (nearly) latest Orange and White books. Hence the posts elsewhere on BBF about Kindles.

[NickRW]

Some of this thread seems to be from Alice in Wonderland.

At a typical club, affiliated or not:

1) The club does not own its own premises. There is no phone let alone broadband access. There is no computer.

2) The director is an unpaid volunteer and probably an untrained individual just trying to see that the club gets a 'good/fair game' as best as he/she is able.

3) There will be either a rule book or a copy of David Stevenson's "yellow" book - or both. There will not be an up to date printed copy of the orange book, though there may be an old one and, if there is a copy of the white book at all, it is way out of date.

4) The club will probably play to approximately level 3 standards - but the club has no explicit policy on this.

5) The members of the club will have heard of the Orange book, but most have not read or consulted it. They may not have even heard of the White book.

Therefore, for the EBU to consider that these publications are a service to its member clubs is, as far as the majority of clubs are concerned, living in cloud cuckoo land. And making the Orange and White books available to members only is an exercise in pen pushing with no visible upside as they aren't in use in any meaningful sense anyway.

Nick

[jeremy69]

Quote

Therefore, for the EBU to consider that these publications are a service to its member clubs is, as far as the majority of clubs are concerned, living in cloud cuckoo land. And making the Orange and White books available to members only is an exercise in pen pushing with no visible upside as they aren't in use in any meaningful sense anyway.

To judge by the correspondence that I receive both books are in use in many clubs. A tangerine book has been produced and this is for clubs who found the OB too long and complex for club bridge. It is about 1/4 of the length. I would not expect clubs to consult the white book all that often but it is intended as something helpful for members and affiliated clubs and offers guidance to those members and clubs when they need to interpret the law.

Quote

At a typical club, affiliated or not:

1) The club does not own its own premises. There is no phone let alone broadband access. There is no computer.

All the clubs I play at do have both computers and an internet connection. Even where this is not the case and I am sure there are village halls where this is true a laptop without internet connection can be used for both scoring and consulting whichever book is required.

Quote

3) There will be either a rule book or a copy of David Stevenson's "yellow" book - or both. There will not be an up to date printed copy of the orange book, though there may be an old one and, if there is a copy of the white book at all, it is way out of date.
4) The club will probably play to approximately level 3 standards - but the club has no explicit policy on this.

5) The members of the club will have heard of the Orange book, but most have not read or consulted it. They may not have even heard of the White book.

And a law book will probably be all that is required on most occasions

The OB or TB will only be needed if someone wants to dispute what is allowed or alertable and I reckon that will be rare in a club session.

Members have no need to go near a white book unless they wish to. It is principally for directors.

Offering help and guidance is one of the things that the EBU should be doing for clubs and members and the Laws and Ethics Committee try to assist with both booklets, email advice, electronic newsletters to clubs and also at tournament level to appeal chairman and are happy to consider any other constructive suggestion in this area.

To whom they are available is an area that has already been extensively covered. At present they are available to all. Some documents may be restricted to members in the future but what and when is yet to be decided. It's likely that to aid updating and also ease cost most copies will continue to be electronic.

[jeremy69]

Quote

Does anyone know what changes were made between the April and August versions?

The changes were all minor and comprised a couple of errors spotted since March 2010 and corrected, some minor updating to the index and including also a couple of decisions made by the L&E since March. There will be no further updates until August 2011 and every August, if necessary, thereafter.

[WellSpyder]

jeremy69, on Apr 19 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

... come and join the EBU (club or player). We believe we can provide a regulated, well run game and wish as many people as possible to have this good experience.
So some will scoff at this, others may wish to remain in the badlands rather than coming on board. The unregulated game will wither on the vine and all will be better off. It may, of course, not work exactly like that ......

I was struck by this on re-reading the older parts of this thread. I very much hope it does NOT work out exactly like that....

Dedicated readers may recall that my club has not been allowed to affiliate to the EBU this year, because we do not hold sufficiently regular club nights - indeed, we have for a while held only very occasional club nights. The good news is that we have now been able to organise a regular monthly club night at which a number of teams will be competing for an annual trophy. (This will, of course, be duplicate bridge, but it will be duplicate teams bridge not duplicate pairs bridge. The club was originally formed by a group of people who felt that teams bridge ought to have a higher profile amongst all the the matchpointed club nights around.)

The less good news, perhaps, is that this will of necessity all be part of the unregulated game since we will still not be meeting regularly enough to satisfy the EBU's definition of a "club" - hence my hope that the unregulated game does not wither on the vine...

It might also be worth noting that absolutely everyone who has entered for the event is already a member of the EBU - but they are willing to take part in an event outside the auspices of the EBU because we can offer a higher standard of bridge than most affiliated clubs. I don't think anyone gains from the club not be affiliated (although the monthly club nights are of course slightly cheaper as a result of not being subject to a pay to play levy) but I should stress that it is nothing to do with the club's wishes that we "remain in the badlands rather than coming on board".

[NickRW]

WellSpyder, on Aug 20 2010, 05:09 PM, said:

It might also be worth noting that absolutely everyone who has entered for the event is already a member of the EBU - but they are willing to take part in an event outside the auspices of the EBU because we can offer a higher standard of bridge than most affiliated clubs.  I don't think anyone gains from the club not be affiliated (although the monthly club nights are of course slightly cheaper as a result of not being subject to a pay to play levy) but I should stress that it is nothing to do with the club's wishes that we "remain in the badlands rather than coming on board".

This is the sort of material that comedians feed on - only it isn't a joke.