[Trinidad]

 Vampyr, on 2015-May-22, 17:42, said:

I know some British people who feel isolated in their neighbourhoods because everyone else there is Bangladeshi or Pakistani or whatever. Here the byword is "multiculturalism", and although perhaps the streets are not flowing with rivers of blood, it has not worked out too well.

That is a separate (but related) problem:

the costs and values of immigration are not shared equally.
the formation of immigrant neighborhoods is not good for integration.

Frankly, the receiving country can do a lot to prevent this problem. In most cases, once the immigrant is in the new country, he has little option other than to live with his fellow countrymen. This is because the Western society doesn't welcome the stranger into the country.

If the Western society would say: "Welcome! What can we do to help you? Let me show you how our country works. Have you met the Joneses yet? Do you like cricket? or hockey? We also play football! You might like to watch that! Have you ever heard of Man United/Ajax Amsterdam/Bayern München? If you need any help, please let me know!" then a (say) Pakistani immigrant has the genuine option to follow that and integrate.

As it is, he is landing on Heathrow/Amsterdam/Frankfurt airport and the only thing he has is a phone number. It is not to some government agency or foundation welcoming him to the UK/Netherlands/Germany. No, it belongs to uncle Tauseef. Uncle Tauseef will help him. First, the immigrant will live with uncle Tauseef. A few months later he will live around the corner from uncle Tauseef. A couple of years later, there are hundred Pakistanis living in uncle Tauseef's neighborhood, except that uncle Tauseef himself will have moved up. After all, uncle Tauseef is the only person around who has integrated in the western society.

Good integration can only happen if the immigrant is helped to find his way into our complex society. It cannot be left to the uncle Tauseefs.

Rik

[kenberg]

Everything in modern life seems to be complicated. My father arrived in the US when he was ten, finished elementary school when he was, I suppose, thirteen or fourteen, and went to work. His life was very difficult, but not complex. Sometimes it is the complex that stumps us. In the early 1900s having an eighth grade education put you at least even with most and ahead of many, and being strong and willing to work was enough.

Now we worry about how to get people through high school at least. Preferably (so we are told anyway) through college. Where will they live? How will the eat? What about medical care? My father went through Ellis Island, they got him on a train to Wisconsin, the rest was up to him.

I am not quarreling with modern needs, but it makes things tougher. Rik's very reasonable list of things that could be done requires cooperation. People are not, for the most part, cruel. But they have their own issues and they are not really up much for thinking about the problems of people that they don't know. And if these other people come from far away and have a different culture, it's expecting a lot.

Life just used to be simpler. A lot simpler.

[Vampyr]

 kenberg, on 2015-May-23, 18:33, said:

Rik's very reasonable list of things that could be done requires cooperation.

And money, and political will.

Quote

Life just used to be simpler. A lot simpler.

Yes, you have mentioned this before. Have you hit on a way to go back?

[kenberg]

 Vampyr, on 2015-May-23, 19:29, said:

And money, and political will.



Yes, you have mentioned this before. Have you hit on a way to go back?

I am generally able to keep my own life fairly simple. In making my choices, simplicity always plays a strong role. I could give examples but it would stray far from the thread.

But for society, I think it is tough.

[Trinidad]

When I came to the USA to start my PhD work, somebody picked me up. He helped me arrange a University appartment and the net day, he drove me to the International Center of the university. At the Internatinal Center they gave me "the package". It was an envelope filled with forms. It was one and a half inch thick. I wasn't allowed to do anything else before all forms were filled out.

The last sheet of paper was a to do list.

At the time, I hated the International Center. I thought they were the biggest bureaucrats I had ever seen and they made me go through a couple of miserable hours of filling out forms. Later, I realized that "the package" contained everything that I needed to fill out to be properly registered with all US authorities, the university, and I don't know what. The international Center sorted out all the paperwork and made sure it got at the right place. The "to do list" was a relatively short list of things I still had to do that the International Center could not arrange for me.

I would have never been able to compile all the paperwork myself. I am still grateful to the International Center for doing that for me and I still feel shame for all my short-sighted moaning and complaining when I was filling out the forms. I wish they would have had an international center in the other countries that I moved to!

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

Immigration in the UK has a particular problem in that a lot of the immigrants are from cultures that have views on women that are fundamentally incompatible with a modern western society, that were part of our empire, Afghanistan, Kashmir and some parts of Africa (FGM) have particular issues. The Eastern Europeans are much less of a problem in that they want to learn English because most of them want to do business with the locals.

There are areas which are almost exclusively south asian immigrant, where particularly the women who came into the country later than school age don't always learn English and are pretty much kept closeted away at home.

I'm not quite sure what we can do about this.

[Aberlour10]

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

[Trinidad]

 Aberlour10, on 2015-May-26, 04:01, said:

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

He probably thinks: "If Thatcher could do it, I can do it too.".

Rik

[NickRW]

 cherdano, on 2015-May-21, 08:39, said:

...So here is what is ridiculous about UK immigration policy: the previous government promised to deliver on a target of "not more than x number of immigrations per year" (I think at some point Cameron made this pledge with x = 100000). That's a ridiculous promise to make, since they had no way of preventing legal EU immigration. So they tried to make up for it by trying to reduce numbers elsewhere at any cost with ridiculous practices. Examples:...

OK. Now I get where you're coming from. Yes, I agree that the pledges that the UK government has made for immigration are completely undeliverable due to membership of the EU. It is up for grabs whether we will continue with this.

[Trinidad]

 NickRW, on 2015-May-26, 05:05, said:

OK. Now I get where you're coming from. Yes, I agree that the pledges that the UK government has made for immigration are completely undeliverable due to membership of the EU. It is up for grabs whether we will continue with this.

The UK is part of the world. That comes with benefits and drawbacks. You cannot keep the drawbacks out without giving up on the benefits.

Rik

[kenberg]

The following occured to me while having my morning coffee: To what extent would a UK withdrawal from the EU be comparble to the French withdrawal from NATO in 1966? (Yes, of course I had to look up the date.)

The French withdrawal was upsetting, at least to the US, but everyone survived it. Anyway it was only temporary (43 years).

Often my views tend toward the simplistic. We have common interests, surely we can work things out. So my hopes run toward the UK remaining in a successful EU. But maybe this won't be the case. Ultimately, neither the UK nor the EU will be asking me.

[helene_t]

France's withdrawal from NATO probably didn't affect many people's daily life other then those who worked for the French military, as long as Nato wasn't at war. By the way, France continued to participate in civilian aspects of NATO.

UK's withdrawal from EU may, depending on the exact terms of conditions, have impact on huge amount of people's daily life. Work, comsumer products, traveling, etc.

[Vampyr]

 Aberlour10, on 2015-May-26, 04:01, said:

Cameron's actual try to re-negotiate several European treaties is like riding a dead horse. They tell him this everywhere in Europe, but he seems not to belive its a hard reality = eat it or leave it.

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

[NickRW]

 kenberg, on 2015-May-26, 06:20, said:

So my hopes run toward the UK remaining in a successful EU.

Well, who wouldn't want to be part of a successful club? The question is whether it really is successful or not. Sure, like most democracies, it bumbles through somehow, but...

[Aberlour10]

 Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 08:18, said:

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

I don't think so. Any significant concessions for sure. If they would start with this ( Treaty of Lisbon etc etc)... more countries would come with their own wiishes..

The times in which screams like " I want my money back" worked in Brussels are gone.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 03:40, said:

Immigration in the UK has a particular problem in that a lot of the immigrants are from cultures that have views on women that are fundamentally incompatible with a modern western society, that were part of our empire, Afghanistan, Kashmir and some parts of Africa (FGM) have particular issues. The Eastern Europeans are much less of a problem in that they want to learn English because most of them want to do business with the locals.

There are areas which are almost exclusively south asian immigrant, where particularly the women who came into the country later than school age don't always learn English and are pretty much kept closeted away at home.

I'm not quite sure what we can do about this.

focus on their kids and grandkids when it comes to language and culture.
immigrants that are older are pretty much set unless self motivated.

don't aim for perfection, try to change what we have the power and influence to change..

government can nudge and then we hope. expect failure often

-----------

to be honest looking at the UK and immigration issues from thousands of miles away, the UK seems to have a pretty darn good track record compared to history of the world.

[Trinidad]

 kenberg, on 2015-May-26, 06:20, said:

The following occured to me while having my morning coffee: To what extent would a UK withdrawal from the EU be comparble to the French withdrawal from NATO in 1966?

It is the same as with any friend leaving a group of friends. The group of friends will go on, perhaps saddened by the decision of the lost friend. The impact (whether positive or negative) on the leaving friend will be much larger.

But if the UK wants to be alone, the other countries won't stop them. They tried to stop the UK when they threatened to leave in the 1908s, out of Pan-European idealism, but they won't do that now.

Rik

[Trinidad]

 Vampyr, on 2015-May-26, 08:18, said:

You might be surprised. I think that the EU will make considerable concessions when they realise Cameron is not bluffing (if, in fact, he is not LOL).

I think the surprise is on the UK. They will find out that there isn't that much sympathy in the EU for the UK.

In the 1980's Thatcher negotiated an exception for the UK. The UK needed to pay considerably less to the EC than it normally should have. This happened at a time where the rest of Europe was filled with Pan-European idealism. They didn't understand why the UK was so hesitant about the EC. The Europeans considered the UK disloyal and difficult. But the way to sell it in Europe was:

• We want to keep everybody in the club.
  
• The UK is having economic difficulties.
  
• The mining regions need our particular support after the closing of the mines.
  
• We need to help a friend in need.

And Thatcher got the deal she wanted. (This exception has existed for decades and has been lifted fairly recently.)

Now, the sentiment is rather different:

• There is hardly anything left of the Pan-European ideal.
  
• The UK has basically been disloyal and difficult towards Europe since Thatcher. It has not behaved like a friend of Europe. (In fact, it isn't a friend of Europe.)
  
• The UK is doing well economically, it doesn't need any help.

So, the European sentiment is: "If you don't like us, well then don't play with us."

Rik

[mike777]

Sympathy or sentiment should play zero role in decision.

It is in the UK's national interest to stay in the EU or drop out.

I understand even if they drop out they can still have some benefits such as Norway has.

I note this whole EU thing started as a protection racket for the coal and steel companies and workers. Crony capitalism
"The EU traces its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC)"

[Cyberyeti]

(Views not necessarily mine, but summing up what I see as a more general perception)

There never has been a pan-european ideal in the UK and this was never sold to us, it was introduced by stealth. Britain has never wanted any of the political union, we joined an economic community, and that's what we want to be in. There is a strong island mentality that means we have fought tooth and nail for our independence, and don't want to give it away to Eurocrats.

There have then been a series of rulings from the European courts seen as perverse over here (inability to deport criminals for reasons seen as silly, giving prisoners the vote in the face of overwhelming opposition from parliament and people etc), and we want to take back the ability to make those decisions here. Many people wrongly connect the ECHR and the EU.

Our fish reserves have been plundered by Spanish trawlers that buy British quotas, ignore the net regulations and go back to Spain rather than landing their catches here, killing the British fishing industry.

There is a feeling that if something is law in the EU, we observe the regs but other countries just ignore them when it suits them.